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  • Originally posted by red77 View Post
    Uh, that is not the same as eternal torment Frank....
    No, it isn't. Maybe some folks have earned a special place.
    Every knee bows and every tongue confesses one day Frank, God wills all men to come to a kowledge of the truth and I believe that in the fullness of time God could achieve his own will, don't you...?
    What does this have to do with anything, other than reiteration of your discredited ideas? I see you're still ignoring the conditions God has put on salvation. Why is that?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
      Instead the message you are proclaiming will leave you with BLOOD on your hands if anyone goes into eternity trusting anything other than Christ because of the false hope that YOU have given them!
      The Biblical doctrine that Christ will ultimately and unfailingly save everyone leaves no other option than to ultimately trust Him, and Him alone!

      Furthermore, that trust is justified in that He is seen to be not only sufficient but effective to the task, worthy of our worship and trust, unlike in your namby-pamby, "God-must-submit-to-man's-free-will" theology.

      There is no "false hope" in the Christian Universalist scenario, only hope "in Christ," for everyone, no exceptions.

      "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
      They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
      They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

      -- George MacDonald

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Frank Ernest View Post
        No, it isn't. Maybe some folks have earned a special place.
        don't you think that it's about time you at least had some consistency about just what it is that you believe?

        What does this have to do with anything, other than reiteration of your discredited ideas? I see you're still ignoring the conditions God has put on salvation. Why is that?
        No i'm not, i'm just not putting time constraints on it....
        "Either these curtains go or I do...."

        - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

        Comment


        • Just re-stating some obvious observations:
          - In OT and NT we find clear "already but not-yet" concepts. Blessings, gifts, outcomes that are clearly seen as in God's will and plan, but which lack fulfillment or realization. [that is, SOME, I do not say ALL]
          - What appears to be "slam dunk" in some passages turn out to be "conditional" in others.
          - God intended to evangelize, proselytize and 'save' the entire world through the Jews
          - God "made alive" all humans through Jesus, just as He "made dead" all through Adam
          - Salvation has been brought to "all men" through the Cross.
          - A Question: Was all of Israel... prophetically .... written into the "book of Life" via Isaac?
          - And, in view of above, were "all Men"... meaning all mankind, recorded in the "book of Life" at the time Jesus paid the eternal price? And if so, how do those 'names' come to be "never written" in the books?

          God is not bound by our definitions of time and space. That is abundantly clear in the many "already -but- not-yet" passages. You are "saved"..... "IF" you continue.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by red77 View Post
            don't you think that it's about time you at least had some consistency about just what it is that you believe?
            I am consistent. You keep playing with strawman arguments.
            No i'm not, i'm just not putting time constraints on it....
            Did God put time constraints on it?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Redfin View Post
              The Biblical doctrine that Christ will ultimately and unfailingly save everyone leaves no other option than to ultimately trust Him, and Him alone!
              It leaves no option but to trust Universalists.
              Furthermore, that trust is justified in that He is seen to be not only sufficient but effective to the task, worthy of our worship and trust, unlike in your namby-pamby, "God-must-submit-to-man's-free-will" theology.
              Whoever said that? You made that up!
              There is no "false hope" in the Christian Universalist scenario, only hope "in Christ," for everyone, no exceptions.
              There is the hope that Universalists are right and God is wrong.
              I have. Thanks.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Frank Ernest View Post
                It leaves no option but to trust Universalists.

                Whoever said that? You made that up!

                There is the hope that Universalists are right and God is wrong.

                I have. Thanks.
                Kev owes you one... your replies make his look almost rational by comparison!
                "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
                They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
                They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

                -- George MacDonald

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FrankErnest
                  There is the hope that Universalists are right and God is wrong.
                  Right. God is right, and they are wrong. So to give someone false hope is to mislead them completely. God revealed clearly in His Word the judgment that will come upon those who reject the sacrifice of His Son on the cross. You cannot read the Bible and come away with a Universalist viewpoint, because the words are very clear. It is only when you read and accept the extra-Biblical writings of Universalists that you come away with views contrary to what the Scriptures teach. That is why the Universalists cannot defend their positions from the Scriptures and why this Battle Talk thread is evident of the continual refusal to actually discuss the debate it was based upon.


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Redfin View Post
                    The Biblical doctrine that Christ will ultimately and unfailingly save everyone leaves no other option than to ultimately trust Him, and Him alone!
                    There is no such doctrine. I have looked and looked and there is no such doctrine.
                    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

                    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

                    What are my fruits today?

                    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

                    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
                      God revealed clearly in His Word the judgment that will come upon those who reject the sacrifice of His Son on the cross.
                      Biblical Universalism agrees with that, PastorKlueless!

                      Wake up, Barney!

                      It's too bad (for your case) that you have no substantive objections to offer.

                      No multiplicity of neg-reps and snide comments will help your case either, but if it makes you feel better, be my guest.

                      Just keep the real bullets in your pocket, where, they belong, deputy.
                      "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
                      They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
                      They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

                      -- George MacDonald

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CabinetMaker View Post
                        There is no such doctrine. I have looked and looked and there is no such doctrine.
                        No such 'doctrine' exists! Does that make it a bit clearer....?
                        "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                        - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by red77 View Post
                          No such 'doctrine' exists! Does that make it a bit clearer....?
                          Well, the eternal lake of fire is doctrinal. Jesus teaches of it Himself. So why do insist on rejecting Jesus in favor of something you admit does not exist?
                          Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

                          But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

                          What are my fruits today?

                          Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

                          "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
                            Right. God is right, and they are wrong. So to give someone false hope is to mislead them completely. God revealed clearly in His Word the judgment that will come upon those who reject the sacrifice of His Son on the cross. You cannot read the Bible and come away with a Universalist viewpoint, because the words are very clear. It is only when you read and accept the extra-Biblical writings of Universalists that you come away with views contrary to what the Scriptures teach. That is why the Universalists cannot defend their positions from the Scriptures and why this Battle Talk thread is evident of the continual refusal to actually discuss the debate it was based upon.
                            Don't forget the part about throwing away all the Biblical statements that disagree with the Universalist Nuance. If it were that easy, I could have saved a bunch of time going over that very question.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Redfin View Post
                              Kev owes you one... your replies make his look almost rational by comparison!
                              Thanks! I'm sure PK appreciates the "help." Considering the question of rational argument, Universalists don't have any.

                              You're welcome.

                              Comment


                              • I may be stepping in ill-timed here... but a universalist message in especially the new testament writings is a given, right? Or are you guys discussing a particular, narrow, modernist Strain or Sect of formalized Universalism?

                                all good seminaries of many, if not all christian flavors, teach and probe both the universalist and peculiarist themes that are in the fabric of the new testament writings. Its a false dialectic to torture an "either/or" stance .... like so many misguided 'debates'.

                                'we now return you to your regularly programmed broadcast'.....

                                Comment

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