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  • Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
    They are consciously tormented day and night forever and ever and they never get out. Which is exactly what the verse says. Anyone who denies it denies the Word of God and calls God a liar.
    Are they consciously and bodily tortured forever and ever, since they are resurrected first and then, apparently, tossed into the Lake of Fire?
    "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

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    • 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

      11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

      The fact that it is the 2nd death indicates the finality of it. God never intended for the FIRST death to enter into creation. Sin plunged death on the entire world. God will plunge death into the Lake of Fire along with all of those who don't have their names written in the Book of Life. They never get out, and are tormented day and night forever and ever in the Lake of Fire. It's over. It's final. Only trusting Christ will save a person's soul.


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      • Originally posted by Balder View Post
        Are they consciously and bodily tortured forever and ever, since they are resurrected first and then, apparently, tossed into the Lake of Fire?
        Their worm does not die and the fire is never quenched. See Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:44-48


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        • Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
          Their worm does not die and the fire is never quenched. See Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:44-48
          Is that a yes?
          "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Balder View Post
            Is that a yes?
            God says yes. It is in the texts I quoted. (Although it's not termed a "resurrection".) A judgment is not a resurrection. The judgment is called the second death, not resurrection. Only Christians participate in the resurrection.


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            • knowing God is essential

              I just got a neg rep from PK for glorifying the eternality of Gods Love. Imagine that. How could a minister of God be anti-Love? Love is everything.

              My last commentary stands, and it has Gods eternal Witness behind it, because it is TRUTH.


              paul


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              • Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
                God says yes. It is in the texts I quoted. (Although it's not termed a "resurrection".) A judgment is not a resurrection. The judgment is called the second death, not resurrection. Only Christians participate in the resurrection.
                Aren't all the dead raised into new bodies prior to the judgment? This is what Hank Hanegraaf teaches in his radio ministry. He says those who are condemned are tossed in their reconstituted (and indestructible) bodies into the Lake of Fire.
                "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

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                • Originally posted by freelight
                  I just got a neg rep from PK
                  If you can't stand the heat stay outta the kitchen Freelight.

                  for glorifying the eternality of Gods Love. Imagine that. How could a minister of God be anti-Love? Love is everything.
                  I am not anti-love, and never said any such thing. I explained in my reply to your post. See: HOGWASH.

                  God is love, and His love led Him to act by sending His only Son to die on the cross for your sins and mine. If a person rejects the love of God found in Christ, they have no hope but certain judgment because God is also righteous, holy, and God HATES sin.

                  My last commentary stands, and it has Gods eternal Witness behind it, because it is TRUTH.
                  You are not God's eternal Witness. You are a phony and a false teacher Freelight. And the end result will be misleading anyone you teach to an eternity apart from God. That is why I say in some ways I feel sorry for you. But you are also willfully blinded because you have a pseudo-Christian worldview that allows you to accept the false teachings of men and at the same time claim you believe the Bible. The problem you have is that your positions DENY the Word of God. There is no way to Heaven apart from Jesus Christ. If you say there is you are a liar and the truth is not in you!


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                  • Originally posted by Balder View Post
                    Aren't all the dead raised into new bodies prior to the judgment? This is what Hank Hanegraaf teaches in his radio ministry. He says those who are condemned are tossed in their reconstituted (and indestructible) bodies into the Lake of Fire.
                    I agree mostly with Hank's position. What I took exception to was terming it a "resurrection". That is a very specific Biblical term that has important meaning. The nature of the bodies they are given is not really disclosed to us, other than yes they are indestrible in the sense that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever, and never burn up.


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                    • Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
                      I agree mostly with Hank's position. What I took exception to was terming it a "resurrection". That is a very specific Biblical term that has important meaning. The nature of the bodies they are given is not really disclosed to us, other than yes they are indestrible in the sense that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever, and never burn up.
                      And you do not find this offensive, that God would give people indestructible bodies before throwing them into a fire?
                      "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

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                      • Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
                        When you or any Universalist can provide the Bible verse that clearly shows anyone getting out of the Lake of Fire you will have a ground to stand on. This debate and the BR go back to early December of last year, and I have been debating this with Universalists on this board for almost a year, and not one Universalist has been able to provide that Bible verse that clearly teaches someone gets out of the Lake of Fire.
                        Since when do you imagine that you get to define in advance the terms of victory or defeat on this issue, and on the basis of a verse, the particular phrasing of which, you know does not exist?!?

                        No one is falling for it...
                        "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
                        They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
                        They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

                        -- George MacDonald

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
                          There is no way to Heaven apart from Jesus Christ.
                          I can't speak for Freelight, but I can assure you that Christian Universalism completely agrees with that statement.
                          "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
                          They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
                          They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

                          -- George MacDonald

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                          • The Restoration of All in Christ

                            Originally posted by PastorKevin View Post
                            This life is the only chance a person gets, and they need to be told to repent and turn their hearts over to God before it is too late! Universalism is leading people to hell!
                            Who could hold to such a belief that this life is the 'only chance' thereby presuming that Gods Love and mercy are NOT eternal? Divine Love will afford all souls every opportunity, not just limited to one lifetime, of turning towards the Light. Eternal Love cannot be limited to a mortals 'belief' that this life is the only 'chance' one gets....then its off to the lake of fire to be tortured forever. This is absurd and against the very nature of Love. It defies spiritual intelligence and all rationality. (but we've been thru this so many times before and it appears one wont 'get it' until the light dawns).

                            Universalism does not lead people to hell,....people choose hell for certain seasons of time for whatever reason. ('hell' here referring to any state of suffering incurred by transgressing natural and divine laws, the anti-thesis of 'heaven', the disobedience to Love). Gods Love however is Eternal. The Will of God is likewise. Love never fails. The Ultimacy of God triumphs thru time and eternity. Think of that, when you entertain the fable of souls being tortured in hell-fire for all eternity with no hope of rehabilitation or remedy...and you it may dawn on you one day of the utter foolishness of such a false doctrine.

                            As far as Rev. 20 goes,....logos_x touched on this in the Battle Royal, as far as the translation of 'forever and ever' - (meaning 'unto ages of ages'......this not meaning necessarily 'for all eternity' - it can refer to an indefinite period of time, which can have an end). All souls will not suffer forever as a punishment inflicted by divine decree, but will suffer only as long as they reject God...but divine Love is always there calling them back home. This is the Nature of LOVE, a Loving Heavenly Father whose investment of existence/life within the souls of His Offspring shall not be in vain! The Preeminence of God-Reality is always SUPREME! Love triumphs!


                            paul


                            sigpic

                            Our Real Nature
                            freelight's cosmic cafe
                            Free-light-Express

                            ~*~*~
                            Resource Nexus l Theosophical Studies l Esoteric School of Gnostic Wisdom l Sanatana Dharma lAdidaml Facebook l Thread Catalog & History

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                            • Originally posted by Balder View Post
                              And you do not find this offensive, that God would give people indestructible bodies before throwing them into a fire?
                              Wouldn't you find it offensive if you gave your only Son that you loved with all of your heart as a sacrifice to save someone from being burned in fire, and they utterly rejected that gift and refused to accept it?


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                              • Originally posted by Freelight
                                Who could hold to such a belief that this life is the 'only chance'
                                Someone who believes God's Word. Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear the progression. We die, we face judgment. That's it. God's judgment is final.

                                it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

                                Jesus made it clear when He said: "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." John 11:26

                                Whoever LIVES and believes makes it clear that the belief must come in this life and only in this life!

                                thereby presuming that Gods Love and mercy are NOT eternal?
                                No, that is not a presumption at all. That was not even hinted. You are making up a false position and trying to ascertain that I hold it. Why not actually debate something of substance rather than your own whimsical fantasies?

                                Divine Love will afford all souls every opportunity,
                                How about we focus our terms. God is not metaphysical freelight. He is real, He is living, personal, relational, loving, and good. He is REAL. GOD has extended His opportunity for salvation to all souls:

                                For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

                                I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. John 12:46

                                For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13)

                                This is an invitation from God. Whoever rejects the invitation doesn't get saved. That is why it says WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved instead of EVERYONE WILL call on the name of the Lord and be saved. Universalists would love it if God's Word could somehow be twisted to say this, but it isn't.

                                not just limited to one lifetime, of turning towards the Light.
                                You mean turning towards a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? By what authority do you Freelight proclaim a message opposite to God's Word, the Bible?

                                Eternal Love cannot be limited to a mortals 'belief' that this life is the only 'chance' one gets....then its off to the lake of fire to be tortured forever. This is absurd and against the very nature of Love. It defies spiritual intelligence and all rationality. (but we've been thru this so many times before and it appears one wont 'get it' until the light dawns).
                                Actually it is because of His love that God does NOT allow wickedness to enter His perfect and holy Heaven. All creation groans because of the pains of sin that have been placed on it. God would not have us go through it all again by allowing sin and wickedness into His Heaven. The only way sin and wickedness can be paid for is by placing your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. That is it. There are no other ways. When you tell people there are other ways besides coming to faith in Christ right now in this life, you are misleading them and you are NOT showing them love at all!

                                Universalism does not lead people to hell,....people choose hell for certain seasons of time for whatever reason. ('hell' here referring to any state of suffering incurred by transgressing natural and divine laws, the anti-thesis of 'heaven', the disobedience to Love).
                                Sin leads people to an eternity apart from God. We have all earned death because we are all sinners. Romans 6:23 teaches us this. We have earned physical death and we have earned our place in the spiritual death spoken of in Revelation which is the 2nd death. A person who is saved will experience the first death (physical) but not the 2nd death (spiritual). A person who is not saved will experience both deaths.

                                Gods Love however is Eternal.
                                That is true. And so is His hatred of sin. And His holiness. And His righteousness. And His justness. Shall we go on?

                                The Will of God is likewise. Love never fails. The Ultimacy of God triumphs thru time and eternity. Think of that, when you entertain the fable of souls being tortured in hell-fire for all eternity with no hope of rehabilitation or remedy...and you it may dawn on you one day of the utter foolishness of such a false doctrine.
                                If God's Word teaches false doctrine then we are all in trouble Freelight. I believe God, not you. God is plain and clear in His Word.

                                As far as Rev. 20 goes,....logos_x touched on this in the Battle Royal, as far as the translation of 'forever and ever' - (meaning 'unto ages of ages'......this not meaning necessarily 'for all eternity' - it can refer to an indefinite period of time, which can have an end).
                                I assume since you read Logos' point in the BR, that you also read the rebuttal that utterly destroys that position?

                                All souls will not suffer forever as a punishment inflicted by divine decree, but will suffer only as long as they reject God...
                                Can you provide a Scripture verse or verses that clearly teaches this?

                                but divine Love is always there calling them back home. This is the Nature of LOVE, a Loving Heavenly Father whose investment of existence/life within the souls of His Offspring shall not be in vain! The Preeminence of God-Reality is always SUPREME! Love triumphs!
                                Love triumphed in the sacrifice of Christ and His resurrection. Love will triumph ultimately when wickedness is purged from creation and tossed into the Lake of Fire forever and ever. Your metaphysical ramblings might get you a few pats on the back from people who are deceived, but they won't make it here. I care enough to confront it for the false teaching that it is. If you take offense to that I am sorry, but I won't stop proclaiming the truth that is found in God's Word.


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