BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

Destruction can sometimes mean different (albeit negative usually) things, a persons life can be destroyed by drug abuse, the person could physically die from an overdose in which case you could say that his habit lead to his physical destruction - or his life could be destroyed because his habit could have cost him his marriage/job/sanity etc....one thing destruction doesnt translate as is endless suffering.....the wide gate leads to destruction doesnt mean eternal hell unless its translated or doctrinised to do so

I looked at all and especially and tried to interpret in light of the rest of scripture and keep it in context. Here, you make a statement (highlighted in bold) that does not make sense. Destruction means the act of destroying. Destroy means to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate. The definition destruction must include eternal torment within its possibilities. Destruction does not imply living outside.

Thank you for answering honestly However i think its fair to say that a simple rebuttal to this would be that if the verse meant only those who would accept in this life would be saved then the passage would read "God is the saviour of all men who believe", the especially is still at the crux of that passage because any argument that maintains limited salvation has to by association try and change the definition of that word......you're right in that its a hard verse when defending the doctrine of ET....
In light of all the other scriptures available there are many that have been presented that speak of God being the ransom for all to be testified to in due time
God being all in all
All things being possible with God etc.................even just the one about all things being possible with God is very difficult to defend with the doctrine of ET because you already believe that Jesus cant save the world and its man who messes it up......and yet this answer was given to the disciples after asking "who then can be saved"?

I do not believe that Jesus can't save the whole world. Jesus's sacrifice for the whole world and it was sucesful. It forever tore down the wall of sin that seperates men and God. The issue is not what Jesus can or can't do, it is what He has said will be. Eternal life is offered to those who accept Jesus on faith. It not that Jesus can't save them, it is people who refuse to be saved.

Universalism teaches that everbody will eventually come to believe in one of two paths. They will believe of their own act of will while on earth. If not, they will be tortured in hell until they see the error of their ways and accept Jesus. The first path is Biblical. The second path is not. There is nothing in scripture that says you will go to the lake of fire that says you will only stay until your are of the proper frame of mind. It is refered to as the second death. Period.

Can you show me a verse that says flatout and in context that you only have to stay in "hell" until you accept Jesus. I can and have pointed to verses that indicate hell is real and forever eventhough I know you disagree with the term forever. Even if we throw that part of the argument out, you must admit that people who go to hell for an age-during are not offered an out until the end of the age-during. And if you go by ages, the Bible is uterly silent on what happens after the age-during of hell. Can you find any erse that indicates there are ages after the age-during of hell (for lack of a better term).

 

[CabinetMaker]

If that verse in 1 Timothy was the only Scripture Christian Universalists had to support their doctrine I might be able to accept your interpretation.

Fortunately for mankind, there is an abundance (I only pasted a handful) of Scriptures that actually say Jesus is the Savior of the world. His Father sent Him to be the Savior of the world and I believe He succeeded. He came to save all that was lost, I don't believe He failed.



“And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” I John 2:2.

“And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of
us all.” Isa. 53:6.

“Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.” John 1:29.

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” John 12:32.


“We both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” I Tim. 4:10.

“We have seen, and do testify, that
the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.” 1 John 4:14.

“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” I John 3:8.

“Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thy
inheritance, and the uttermost part of the earth for thy possession.” Ps. 2:8.

“The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” John 3:35.

“Thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou has given him.” John 17:2. (Compare to above verse)

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.” Heb. 2:9

“He gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in
due time.” I Tim. 2:6.

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” I Tim. 2:4

“He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” Dan. 4:35.

“He worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.” Eph. 1:11.

“My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.” Isa. 46:10.

“And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you, whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of ALL HIS HOLY PROPHETS since the world began.” Acts 3:20, 21.

“Therefore, as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” Rom. 5:18

“Fear not,” said the angel who announced it, “for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.” Luke 2:10.

“As in Adam all die even so, in Christ, shall all be made alive.” I Cor. 15:22.

“And having made peace through the blood of the cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in heaven or things on earth.” Col. 1:20.

“God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” II Cor. 5:19

“Therefore, God hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name that at (in) the name of Jesus every knee shall bow of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” Phil. 2:9-11.

“no man can say that Christ is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” I Cor. 12:3.(compare to above verse)

How do you, Kimberlyann, deal with the narrow and wide gates? Note that the wide gate leads to destruction so you will need to deal with esdecially with that word.

 

[Damian]

What does Paul mean when he says that Jesus is going reconcile all things to Himself?

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, {I say,} whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Is it fair to say the reconciliation of "all things" includes all of humanity, all of nature, and all of the fallen angels including the devil himself?

 

[Aimiel]

In other words, the verse does not stand alone as a statement of doctrine. It must be examined in light of all the scripture we have.

If you don't examine it in the light of common sense also, then what good are you doing? When prison corrections officials do their duty (they are ministers of God for good) and execute someone, are they not still 'good' in doing their duty? They are ministers of God. They are doing His Will. The Lord isn't willing that any should perish, but that doesn't mean that they won't. The same goes for The Lord. He isn't evil, simply because someone's sins sends them to eternal torment. He is their Savior, still, but they have chosen to reject Him. Being The Savior of The Whole World doesn't mean that He will save every soul (as clearly demonstrated by Scriptures) as Jesus Himself said, "My Blood is for the propitiation of many," and, "Many are called, but few are chosen," and again, "... few there be that find it."

 

[red77]

I looked at all and especially and tried to interpret in light of the rest of scripture and keep it in context. Here, you make a statement (highlighted in bold) that does not make sense. Destruction means the act of destroying. Destroy means to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate. The definition destruction must include eternal torment within its possibilities. Destruction does not imply living outside.

I admire your attempt but ultimately you ended up - probably unwittingly - redefining 'especially' as 'only' as most people who believe in ET almost invariably do....
Either that or just try and remove the word altogether.....
to try and make the definition of 'destruction' mean eternal torment on the other hand is quite a leap, annihaltionislm would make more sense in the definition of the word! ruin on the other hand makes complete sense, as I tried to analogise before a mans life may lie in ruins because of an addiction etc....



I

do not believe that Jesus can't save the whole world. Jesus's sacrifice for the whole world and it was sucesful. It forever tore down the wall of sin that seperates men and God. The issue is not what Jesus can or can't do, it is what He has said will be. Eternal life is offered to those who accept Jesus on faith. It not that Jesus can't save them, it is people who refuse to be saved.

But you dont believe it! If you did you'd think it were possible for all to be saved and by believeing in ET you are automatically discounting that, you believe that all things are not possible with God and that his ransom for all cannot be testified to in due time....if only a few end up being redeemed then how can the ransom for ALL be testified to? This makes God being the saviour of all men especially of those who believe even more difficult to rebut........

Universalism teaches that everbody will eventually come to believe in one of two paths. They will believe of their own act of will while on earth. If not, they will be tortured in hell until they see the error of their ways and accept Jesus. The first path is Biblical. The second path is not. There is nothing in scripture that says you will go to the lake of fire that says you will only stay until your are of the proper frame of mind. It is refered to as the second death. Period.

Can you show me a verse that says flatout and in context that you only have to stay in "hell" until you accept Jesus. I can and have pointed to verses that indicate hell is real and forever eventhough I know you disagree with the term forever. Even if we throw that part of the argument out, you must admit that people who go to hell for an age-during are not offered an out until the end of the age-during. And if you go by ages, the Bible is uterly silent on what happens after the age-during of hell. Can you find any erse that indicates there are ages after the age-during of hell (for lack of a better term).

universalism - or at least my belief does not have people being tortured in a literal fiery hell, one of the main facets of my looking at universalism was that the terms 'hell' and the lake of fire are seen very much as allegorical and not literal at all - unlike orthodox teaching, what one passage does say though is that 'they shall have their part in the lake of fire...a lot of this stems to me on whether you see revelation as symbolic or literal, not manyfolk read the whoe of revelation literally but yet many seem to want to see the LOF as being so - despite the screaming symbology of both death and hell being thrown in there...(by the way - do you see it as literal or symbolic?)
I think as Logos X pointed out that the last enemy to be destroyed is death, presumably this would include spiritual death also which is where I believe God's ransom will have been testified to and God will be all in all.....

 

[red77]

If you don't examine it in the light of common sense also, then what good are you doing? When prison corrections officials do their duty (they are ministers of God for good) and execute someone, are they not still 'good' in doing their duty? They are ministers of God. They are doing His Will. The Lord isn't willing that any should perish, but that doesn't mean that they won't. The same goes for The Lord. He isn't evil, simply because someone's sins sends them to eternal torment. He is their Savior, still, but they have chosen to reject Him. Being The Savior of The Whole World doesn't mean that He will save every soul (as clearly demonstrated by Scriptures) as Jesus Himself said, "My Blood is for the propitiation of many," and, "Many are called, but few are chosen," and again, "... few there be that find it."

when examined in light of other scriptures God being the saviour of all men especially believers makes perfect common sense......what doesnt make sense is people being hideously tortured for endless years for no purpose - no good - and no constructive reason....

 

[Kimberlyann]

How do you, Kimberlyann, deal with the narrow and wide gates? Note that the wide gate leads to destruction so you will need to deal with esdecially with that word.

I think God has a plan that involves calling only a few in this Church age, but it will eventually extend to all mankind.

REMEMBER, "He gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time.” I Tim. 2:6.
AND “...if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” John 12:32. (not might, but will)

Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Wow, Paul said creation itself will be set free from its bondage into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. I think that is something to be excited about. No wonder creation is anxiously longing for the revealing of the sons of God.Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he {already} sees?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Now I don't completely understand that plan but I have faith that it is His will to save all mankind and I trust that He is fully able and willing to accomplish His own will.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I think God has a plan that involves calling only a few in this Church age, but it will eventually extend to all mankind.

REMEMBER, "He gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time.” I Tim. 2:6.
AND “...if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” John 12:32. (not might, but will)

Now I don't completely understand that plan but I have faith that it is His will to save all mankind and I trust that He is fully able and willing to accomplish His own will.

Upon what do you base your belief in this "plan"? The Bible is written pretty directly to people walking and brathing on the earth here and now. Where are the verses that lay out a plan beyond the "church age"?

 

[Kimberlyann]

Is it fair to say the reconciliation of "all things" includes all of humanity, all of nature, and all of the fallen angels including the devil himself?

I'm not sure, but I believe with God all things are possible.


Re 5:13 -
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

 

[Zadok]

Destruction means the act of destroying. Destroy means to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.

Not quite, C.M.

In fact, the strongest words for destruction in the New Covenant are apollumi and olethros, both of which can be demonstrated to encompass salvation. The Saviour of the whole world declares to you, and I, and every one who follows Him...."If you save your life you will destroy/ apollumi it. But if you destroy/ apollumi your life for Me, you shall save it." .

And, C.M., the vessels of wrath "prepared" for apoleia/ opollumi destruction?

Fitted= katartivzw

katartivzw =

To render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete .

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair.

To complete.

To fit out, to equip, to put in order, to arrange, to adjust.

To fit or frame or prepare for one's self.

To strengthen, to perfect, to complete.

To make one what he ought to be.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Upon what do you base your belief in this "plan"? The Bible is written pretty directly to people walking and brathing on the earth here and now. Where are the verses that lay out a plan beyond the "church age"?

Did you read the Scriptures I posted from Romans 8?

 

[CabinetMaker]

universalism - or at least my belief does not have people being tortured in a literal fiery hell, one of the main facets of my looking at universalism was that the terms 'hell' and the lake of fire are seen very much as allegorical and not literal at all - unlike orthodox teaching, what one passage does say though is that 'they shall have their part in the lake of fire...a lot of this stems to me on whether you see revelation as symbolic or literal, not manyfolk read the whoe of revelation literally but yet many seem to want to see the LOF as being so - despite the screaming symbology of both death and hell being thrown in there...(by the way - do you see it as literal or symbolic?)
I think as Logos X pointed out that the last enemy to be destroyed is death, presumably this would include spiritual death also which is where I believe God's ransom will have been testified to and God will be all in all.....

I do not know if it will be litteral or if it is allegorical though I tend to believe it is literal. I do believe that it represents eternal seperation from God.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Did you read the Scriptures I posted from Romans 8?

Yes. It points to revelations and the end times. I do not see anything in that verse that speaks of a grander plane than what is layed out in revelations. What about the gates and destruction?

 

[Zadok]

Upon what do you base your belief in this "plan"? The Bible is written pretty directly to people walking and brathing on the earth here and now. Where are the verses that lay out a plan beyond the "church age"?

Follow the bouncing ball, C.M.

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, all things in Christ...and you, chosen (singled out) beforehand in accordance with the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."

"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."

Ta panta= the all things. The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins.That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en Christ.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

 

[red77]

I do not know if it will be litteral or if it is allegorical though I tend to believe it is literal. I do believe that it represents eternal seperation from God.

Dont you think that with something this crucial you'd be crystal clear one way or another? What do you think it means when it says that 'death and hell' are thrown in there? How can that be literal? If the last enemy to be destroyed is death then how can there be people suffering the "second death" if that translates as being eternally tormented?

 

[red77]

Follow the bouncing ball, C.M.

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, all things in Christ...and you, chosen (singled out) beforehand in accordance with the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will."

"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."

Ta panta= the all things. The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins.That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en Christ.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

Exactly, what more of a 'grand plan' could there possibly be?

 

[Zadok]

Yes. It points to revelations and the end times. I do not see anything in that verse that speaks of a grander plane...

Ah, C.M. you don't see is more than evident. The apostle Paul declares that the whole of created life (the ktisis) shall be delivered from the tyranny of slavery,. yes, slavery to sin. The whole of created life shall be delivered, rescued from the shackles of slavery into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The ktisis= everything created

"Shall be delivered"

Delivered= ejleuqerovw

To make free.

To set at liberty: from the dominion of sin

 

[Aethril]

How do you, Kimberlyann, deal with the narrow and wide gates? Note that the wide gate leads to destruction so you will need to deal with esdecially with that word.

CM just listen to them. All the people who go through the wide gate to their destruction will eventually end up with all the people who chose the narrow path... so basically it doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus here on Earth or not... sheesh how could I have been so blind?

 

[Zadok]

Ah, C.M. you don't see is more than evident. The apostle Paul declares that the whole of created life (the ktisis) shall be delivered from the tyranny of slavery,. yes, slavery to sin. The whole of created life shall be delivered, rescued from the shackles of slavery into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The ktisis= everything created

"Shall be delivered"

Delivered= ejleuqerovw

To make free.

To set at liberty: from the dominion of sin

And in what is ejleuqerovw (delivered) rooted in the Koine?

ejleuqerovw rooted in ejleuvqeroß

ejleuvqeroß =

Freeborn.

One who is not a slave

Of one who ceases to be a slave, freed, manumitted.

Free from the yoke.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Yes. It points to revelations and the end times. I do not see anything in that verse that speaks of a grander plane than what is layed out in revelations. What about the gates and destruction?

Why don't you suspend your views for a moment and consider the implication of the word destruction in the below Scripture?



1Co 5:5 -
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.