BRXII Battle talk

[Stripe]

Knight has given advice to contestants in the past i seem to remember. Logos has responded here with a view to advancing the discussion. Thanks Knight and well done Logos.

 

[Zadok]

The foregoing questions are important ones.

"If Jesus Christ took on the sin of the world, then God's wrath and justice have already been satisfied. The assertion that individuals will spend an eternity in hell implies that Christ's sacrificial atonement was incomplete and unsatisfactory. Evidently, Christ died in vain." (source: Damian's Post #220 in this thread)

The Calvinists apparently recognize this inconsistency and attempt to use "damage control" by flaunting the darkside of God. They assert that God desires to express his loving side for a chosen few, and display his wrathful side for the vast majority. Therefore, Christ only bore the sin for the chosen few who were predestined before the beginning of time.

As far as I am concerned, both doctrines are philosophically and theologically inadequate. In one case, you have a God who desires to save everyone but can't. In the other, you have a God who simply wants to save a chosen few and relishes the thought of consigning the vast majority to eternal damnation.

:think:

Both doctrines are inadequate indeed. The Saviour of the whole ungodly multitude tasted death for every man, but unfortunately that is not sufficient for every man who must suffer in this life, and the next, by experiencing death (make that "everlasting death") for himself. "Behold I bring you glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people."

Sing it HERE

Joy to the world, the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.

Joy to the earth, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.

:tunes:

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders, wonders, of His love.

 

[Zadok]

"And He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and not for our sins ONLY, but for the sins of the whole ungodly world".

Over Every Foe Victorious

Hail to the Lord’s anointed, great David’s greater Son!
Hail in the time appointed, His reign on earth begun!
He comes to break oppression, to set the captive free;
To take away transgression and rule in equity.

He comes in succor speedy to those who suffer wrong;
To help the poor and needy, and bid the weak be strong;
To give them songs for sighing, their darkness turn to light,
Whose souls, condemned and dying, were precious in His sight.

By such shall He be fearèd while sun and moon endure;
Beloved, obeyed, reverèd; for He shall judge the poor
Through changing generations, with justice, mercy, truth,
While stars maintain their stations, or moons renew their youth.

He shall come down like showers upon the fruitful earth;
Love, joy, and hope, like flowers, spring in His path to birth.
Before Him, on the mountains, shall peace, the herald, go,
And righteousness, in fountains, from hill to valley flow.

Arabia’s desert ranger to Him shall bow the knee;
The Ethiopian stranger His glory come to see;
With offerings of devotion ships from the isles shall meet,
To pour the wealth of oceans in tribute at His feet.

Kings shall fall down before Him, and gold and incense bring;
All nations shall adore Him, His praise all people sing;
For He shall have dominion o’er river, sea and shore,
Far as the eagle’s pinion or dove’s light wing can soar.

For Him shall prayer unceasing and daily vows ascend;
His kingdom still increasing, a kingdom without end:
The mountain dews shall nourish a seed in weakness sown,
Whose fruit shall spread and flourish and shake like Lebanon.

O’er every foe victorious, He on His throne shall rest;
From age to age more glorious, all blessing and all blest.
The tide of time shall never His covenant remove;
His Name shall stand forever, His Name to us is Love.

 

[Zadok]

:up:

One thing that really gets me about those who believe in eternal torment is when they say that universalists call God a liar....

This means that every verse that says that God will reconcile all and save all really means that God never in fact intended to redeem all but only a few or some of his creation.....

Its just totally bizarre, doesn't God himself say that he wills that none should perish but have life? Didn't Jesus come for every single person on the planet, to be the saviour of the world? Or was his intent only to save some or a few from an eternity of agony and not really the world after all....

It seems that those who cling to the monstrosity of endless agony believe that God was incapable of being the saviour of all men for whatever reason they choose that to be - be it mans free will to reject or whatever....

And yet God says it is his will for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, that Jesus paid a ransom for all to be testified to in due time , even the disciples didnt think that many would be saved but what answer were they given? "With man this is impossible but with God ALL things are possible".....so even those who think that man can somehow mess up this plan must also think that ALL things are not possible with God....

Universalists make God out to be a liar because they believe that God can and does actually restore everything.....? Go figure.....

It comes down to this Red....out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. To some the Living One is the tormenter of all tormenters, come in the Person of His beloved Son to advance despair. To others, the chiefest of sinners, the hope "shall be delivered" burns deeply.

"And the hope is that in the end the whole of created life (the ktisis) shall be delivered/ rescued from the tyranny of slavery into the glorious liberty of God's children."

Will the whole of created life (the ktisis) be delivered from the slavery of sin and despair? Or, shall we call God a liar!

My wrath is kindled against you, and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of Me the thing that is right.

I know a remarkable brother, who in the midst of declaring the unending misery of God upon His creation, was stopped short by these words dropped into his heart one day...

"Do you really believe that of Me?"

 

[ChasClean]

Jason,

You haven't posted since my response to you in Post# 182 and 183. Hopefully, you have been researching and thinking it over.

Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[ChasClean]

PK,

I know you have alot of time and effort invested in this debate and forum. I am not making light of that. But I think it is important to point out the following:

#190 Battle talk

This is exactly what we find in the false teaching of Universalism. Jesus says one thing, about eternal punishment and Universalism says another.

10 Debate

It is because Universalism (like it’s opposite Annihilationism) is an entirely unbiblical doctrine. They take many extra-biblical teachings (which are the teachings of men), and insert them alongside the Scriptures in order to justify those teachings. This is why in this argument I will do very little of this, but instead will focus on the Scriptures themselves.

Can we stop these type of statements?

Why? Because this whole debate is centered on what Jesus said and on what the Bible says.

We say Jesus and scripture clearly teaches the salvation of all.

And what is your response?

1. Universalism is false. (Man, that’s powerful.)

2. Jesus doesn’t teach it. (Whew, I’m feeling out debated.)

3. Universalism is entirely unbiblical. (Well, I guess that settles it. We lose.)

Oh, and your statement regarding being a purist by focusing on the scriptures only is nothing but a debate power play. You are simply saying that we have a lot of verses, so we are right.

So PK, I know it weakens our side to bring in Common Sense, Historical Evidence, Translational Evidence, Philosophical Evidence, as well as Biblical Evidence. But we just can’t help ourselves.

We, most of the time, center on what Jesus, Paul and the Bible says. We are able to provide an abundance of scriptural evidence regarding Christian Universalism. And you know it. So, please try to stop these power play tactics.

They will have to give an account to God one day for all the people they misled into believing they really didn't have to repent in this life, that all were saved in the end anyway.

Back at ya. Eternal torment teachers will have to give an account to God for all the people who were turned away from the gospel by a message like this, “God loves you as long as you love Him in time. But if you don’t love Him “in time” you will burn forever, with no one to blame but yourself. So, you better love Him before He sends you to hell.”

I don't know about you, but I feel pretty slimed after reading that gospel message.


PS, no hurry but I am waiting for responses to posts# 144 and 207.

 

[ChasClean]

Logos,

It's comforting to know that a few quotation marks isn't going to affect God's plan for us all, isn't it?

You've handled this admirably. That in itself is a powerful testimony of your understanding that God is in control.

 

[Kimberlyann]

PK,

I know you have alot of time and effort invested in this debate and forum. I am not making light of that. But I think it is important to point out the following:

#190 Battle talk



10 Debate



Can we stop these type of statements?

Why? Because this whole debate is centered on what Jesus said and on what the Bible says.

We say Jesus and scripture clearly teaches the salvation of all.

And what is your response?

1. Universalism is false. (Man, that’s powerful.)

2. Jesus doesn’t teach it. (Whew, I’m feeling out debated.)

3. Universalism is entirely unbiblical. (Well, I guess that settles it. We lose.)

Oh, and your statement regarding being a purist by focusing on the scriptures only is nothing but a debate power play. You are simply saying that we have a lot of verses, so we are right.

So PK, I know it weakens our side to bring in Common Sense, Historical Evidence, Translational Evidence, Philosophical Evidence, as well as Biblical Evidence. But we just can’t help ourselves.

We, most of the time, center on what Jesus, Paul and the Bible says. We are able to provide an abundance of scriptural evidence regarding Christian Universalism. And you know it. So, please try to stop these power play tactics.




Back at ya. Eternal torment teachers will have to give an account to God for all the people who were turned away from the gospel by a message like this, “God loves you as long as you love Him in time. But if you don’t love Him “in time” you will burn forever, with no one to blame but yourself. So, you better love Him before He sends you to hell.”

I don't know about you, but I feel pretty slimed after reading that gospel message.


PS, no hurry but I am waiting for responses to posts# 144 and 207.

:thumb:

 

[Kimberlyann]

Logos,

It's comforting to know that a few quotation marks isn't going to affect God's plan for us all, isn't it?

You've handled this admirably. That in itself is a powerful testimony of your understanding that God is in control.

Amen.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Well, I personally do not consider this a problem.

"Hell is only what the ego has made of the present." ACIM

* Selah *

I view hell as a state of mind in which the individual believes he's separated from God.

And I agree that it is our choice that keeps us in hell. However, we always have the option of choosing again. That's what spiritual growth entails.

Nevertheless, I do have an issue with the biblical conception of salvation and hell. Why isn't the option to accept Christ always available?

The items highlighted in red and bold indicate that you have exchanged the Gospel of Jesus for the Gospel of self. Your theology is built on what you think and feel and what you want to be true, not what Jesus and the Apostles have taught us. If these are the things that you truely hold to then I must caution you that you have missed the meaning of the gospel.

Why isn't the option to accept Christ always available? Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. The simplest answer to your question is may be the least satisfuing answer for you. God's will, God's plan for salvation is by Faith alone, in Christ alone. Faith is only available to you in this one short life on earth. After that, you will stand before Jesus and judged sheep or goat.

It is not I, cabinetmaker, that say these things, these are the things the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach what I want to hear, it teaches me what I must know whether I agree or not. To ignor or changes the truth that the Bible teaches is to risk damnation.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Redfin, waiting for your response to post 223.

 

[Redfin]

Redfin, waiting for your response to post 223.

Woe unto them who have eyes but cannot see.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Woe unto them who have eyes but cannot see.

I see. You are unable to answer the question I posed so you resort to meaningless platitudes.

Since you are completely unable to defend your position so it might be time to re-evaluate what you believe and why you believe it.

 

[Redfin]

You are unable to answer the question I posed so you resort to meaningless platitudes.

You are unable to recognize an answer (or a Biblical platitude for that matter) when it is right before your eyes.

Due to your complete inability to rise to the challenge, rather than continuing to be distracted by your inane interference, I'll just wait for PK to attempt to scripturally prove the immutability of one's salvational status after death.

I won't hold my breath though. :chuckle:

 

[Kimberlyann]

For what it's worth, "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful." -Jesus as recorded in Luke 6:35-36 NKJV :think:

 

[CabinetMaker]

You are unable to recognize an answer (or a Biblical platitude for that matter) when it is right before your eyes.

Due to your complete inability to rise to the challenge, rather than continuing to be distracted by your inane interference, I'll just wait for PK to attempt to scripturally prove the immutability of one's salvational status after death.

I won't hold my breath though. :chuckle:

ITs okay to admit that you can't find a single verse in the Bible that says you can find salvation after death. That is because the Bible has no verse in that says you can find salvation after death.

 

[PKevman]

ITs okay to admit that you can't find a single verse in the Bible that says you can find salvation after death. That is because the Bible has no verse in that says you can find salvation after death.

Or repentence. Or the quenching of the fire in the Lake of Fire. Or Satan, the False Prophet, the Beast, and those who worship the Beast and take his mark, or those whose names are not written in book of life EVER getting out of the Lake of Fire once they are cast in there. Not one single verse, even though there are many that show they ARE cast in there. And there are many that show that the punishment is everlasting or eternal or forever and ever.

Keep up the good fight CM, I'm proud of you!

 

[PKevman]

PK,

Thanks for responding. I know you are busy. I didn't mean to sound curt.



That is a pretty dogmatic statement. You said physical death is[/B] temporary. Did you also mean to say it was temporary. It seems as if it were just as final as any death.

Ge 5:5
Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.
Ge 5:8
Altogether, Seth lived 912 years, and then he died.
Ge 5:11
Altogether, Enosh lived 905 years, and then he died.
Ge 5:14
Altogether, Kenan lived 910 years, and then he died.
Ge 5:17
Altogether, Mahalalel lived 895 years, and then he died.
Ge 5:20
Altogether, Jared lived 962 years, and then he died.
Ge 5:27
Altogether, Methuselah lived 969 years, and then he died.
Ge 5:31
Altogether, Lamech lived 777 years, and then he died.

That seems pretty hopeless.



You say “spiritual death” as if it is just so simply synonymous with “burning in hell forever.”

Physical death not eternal.

Spiritual death = Burning in hell forever

Those two statements are so indicative of an unwavering theological paradigm.

Reading one thing and seeing another.

I'll explain it simply. Physical death is temporary in it is not the end. The righteous will awaken to eternal life and the wicked to eternal damnation.
But you are right in that it is a permanent condition that we cannot come back from, just as spiritual death is a permanent condition that we cannot come back from as well.

There are only two deaths. Physical death and spiritual death. Physical death is the end of the body. Spiritual death is spending eternity in the Lake of Fire where your worm will not die and the fire will not be quenched. (Per Jesus Christ)

Hope that makes more sense for you.

God bless.

PK

 

[PKevman]

You are unable to recognize an answer (or a Biblical platitude for that matter) when it is right before your eyes.

Due to your complete inability to rise to the challenge, rather than continuing to be distracted by your inane interference, I'll just wait for PK to attempt to scripturally prove the immutability of one's salvational status after death.

I won't hold my breath though. :chuckle:

Read the debate. Do you think you could do better than Logos?

 

[PKevman]

Tell you what PK. I'll make you a deal.

Rev. 6: 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Explain to me how in ch. 6 the sun turns black, the moon red, the stars fell to the earth, the sky has receeded and every mountain and island has been removed.

“Then”, that’s the way the next verse starts. Verse 15, THEN the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

My goodness. The sun is black. The stars have fallen to the earth. The sky has receeded. Every mountain and island removed. And…. People are still running around alive???

Not only that, but they are hiding among the mountains which have been removed. They want the mountains which have been removed to fall on them.

You explain that to me and I will explain why there is no mention of anyone being let out of the Lake of Fire.

You get my point? My point is, I would think twice before I made the symbolic Lake of Fire a dividing line of whether or not God was going to torment millions for eternity as a sign of His justice.

Is that going to be your defense to God when He asks you why you continued to preach such a doctrine? To which God would likely reply, “My goodness PK. Didn’t you know symbolism when you saw it?”

No it will be because that is what His Word plainly says.