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  • Originally posted by Redfin
    Bingo! Therefore, the proposition that PK is really asserting is that "Believers Will Spend Eternity In The Lake Of Fire"!

    My guess is that by that time, they will be repentant believers as well.

    Kinda makes the horrible reality of PK's position a little more stark, doesn't it?



    Wrong.

    The passage you quoted actually says that it is God's grace that saves us (see underlining above), and that faith is our means of appropriating (enjoying the benefits of) that salvation.

    PK's task (or yours, if you'd like), is to scripturally prove the immutability of one's salvational status after death.

    You've already admitted that people can change after death (from unbelievers to believers, or from ignorant to knowledgeable).
    Yes and you totally missed the point. It is not knowledge of Jesus that saves it is faith. When you are standing before Jesus there is no longer a need for faith. The choice you make while alive on this earth is the only one that matters.

    In the entire new testament there is not one verse that teaches salvation is possible after death. Every NT verse that talks about physical death always holds that judgement follows.

    Mathew talks of the sheep and goats standing before Jesus on judgement day, there is no offer of salvation to the goats.

    Revelation talks of the reading of the names in the book of life. Those whos names are cast into the lake without an offer of salvation.

    Hebrews 9:27
    Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,


    Now you must show me the verses that say there is salvation after death. Bet you can't.
    Galatians 5:22-23 (New International Version)

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    What are my fruits today?

    Cityboy With Horses A blog about what happens when you say, "I Promise"

    "Moral standards" are a lot like lighthouses: they exist to help us stay on course as we sail through life. But we have to steer BY them, but not directly AT them. Lest we end up marooned on the shoals of perpetual self-righteousness.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CabinetMaker
      Now you must show me the verses that say there is salvation after death. Bet you can't.
      Logos_X already has, in the BR.

      LogosA-PKQ12 Are you saying they can't?

      Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
      "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
      They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
      They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

      -- George MacDonald

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CabinetMaker
        Yes and you totally missed the point. It is not knowledge of Jesus that saves it is faith. When you are standing before Jesus there is no longer a need for faith. The choice you make while alive on this earth is the only one that matters.
        I didn't miss your point, but you've missed the truth.

        John 6:40 - For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life..."

        "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
        They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
        They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

        -- George MacDonald

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CabinetMaker
          In the entire new testament there is not one verse that teaches salvation is possible after death.
          Wrong again.

          Since I've already shared the verse Logos shared that "says" it, now here are some that "teach" it.

          I'll just cite the references this time, hoping that forcing you to actually open your Bible will cause you to become more familiar with its contents {gentle dig}

          Matthew 9:25

          Mark 5:42

          Luke 7:15

          John 11:44

          Acts 9:40

          Matthew 27:52

          If those words don't teach you that the power and grace of God extend beyond death and the grave, I don't know what can.
          "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
          They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
          They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

          -- George MacDonald

          Comment


          • Originally posted by PastorKevin

            No offense, but I'll stick with Strong and Vine and other reputable, conservative scholars over liberal wackos!

            God bless,

            PK

            I guess I'll be one to gladly count himself among the liberal wackos... God bless you, Pastor Kevin - sincerely!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Redfin
              Wrong again.

              Since I've already shared the verse Logos shared that "says" it, now here are some that "teach" it.

              I'll just cite the references this time, hoping that forcing you to actually open your Bible will cause you to become more familiar with its contents {gentle dig}

              Matthew 9:25

              Mark 5:42

              Luke 7:15

              John 11:44

              Acts 9:40

              Matthew 27:52

              If those words don't teach you that the power and grace of God extend beyond death and the grave, I don't know what can.
              How about this one?

              For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 8:38-39 NASB)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kimberlyann
                How about this one?

                For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 8:38-39 NASB)


                By the way, I want to add my appreciation to Stephen and Kevin for putting themselves, their time and effort, and their care for souls, out there. Thanks, guys.
                "The truly wise talk little about religion, and are not given to taking sides on doctrinal issues...
                They have no time, they say, for that kind of thing.
                They have enough to do in trying to faithfully practice what is beyond dispute."

                -- George MacDonald

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Kimberlyann
                  How about this one?

                  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 8:38-39 NASB)


                  One thing that really gets me about those who believe in eternal torment is when they say that universalists call God a liar.....
                  This means that every verse that says that God will reconcile all and save all really means that God never in fact intended to redeem all but only a few or some of his creation.....

                  Its just totally bizarre, doesnt God himself say that he wills that none should perish but have life? Didnt Jesus come for every single person on the planet, to be the saviour of the world? Or was his intent only to save some or a few from an eternity of agony and not really the world after all....

                  it seems that those who cling to the monstrosity of endless agony believe that God was incapable of being the saviour of all men for whatever reason they choose that to be - be it mans free will to reject or whatever....

                  and yet God says it is his will for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, that Jesus paid a ransom for all to be testified to in due time , even the disciples didnt think that many would be saved but what answer were they given? "With man this is impossible but with God ALL things are possible".....so even those who think that man can somehow mess up this plan must also think that ALL things are not possible with God....

                  universalists make God out to be a liar because they believe that God can and does actually restore everything.....? Go figure.....
                  "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                  - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Redfin


                    By the way, I want to add my appreciation to Stephen and Kevin for putting themselves, their time and effort, and their care for souls, out there. Thanks, guys.
                    Yes....

                    Thanks be to Stephen and Kevin for a great debate.


                    You guys are the best!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Redfin


                      By the way, I want to add my appreciation to Stephen and Kevin for putting themselves, their time and effort, and their care for souls, out there. Thanks, guys.
                      My pleasure.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by red77


                        One thing that really gets me about those who believe in eternal torment is when they say that universalists call God a liar.....
                        This means that every verse that says that God will reconcile all and save all really means that God never in fact intended to redeem all but only a few or some of his creation.....

                        Its just totally bizarre, doesnt God himself say that he wills that none should perish but have life? Didnt Jesus come for every single person on the planet, to be the saviour of the world? Or was his intent only to save some or a few from an eternity of agony and not really the world after all....

                        it seems that those who cling to the monstrosity of endless agony believe that God was incapable of being the saviour of all men for whatever reason they choose that to be - be it mans free will to reject or whatever....

                        and yet God says it is his will for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, that Jesus paid a ransom for all to be testified to in due time , even the disciples didnt think that many would be saved but what answer were they given? "With man this is impossible but with God ALL things are possible".....so even those who think that man can somehow mess up this plan must also think that ALL things are not possible with God....

                        universalists make God out to be a liar because they believe that God can and does actually restore everything.....? Go figure.....
                        Yeah, go figure.


                        Nice post.

                        Comment


                        • When you can come up with one single verse in the Bible that clearly shows one individual (angel, human, or otherwise), being allowed out of the Lake of Fire, or leaving the Lake of Fire, then your argument might become more legitimate. It doesn't matter how many people you can say agree with what you say, your basic premise is destroyed by the light of the Word of God. It doesn't matter how many convincing arguments you try to write up, you cannot ever and will not ever be able to quantify the belief that someone in the Lake of Fire comes out.
                          Tell you what PK. I'll make you a deal.

                          Rev. 6: 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

                          Explain to me how in ch. 6 the sun turns black, the moon red, the stars fell to the earth, the sky has receeded and every mountain and island has been removed.

                          “Then”, that’s the way the next verse starts. Verse 15, THEN the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

                          My goodness. The sun is black. The stars have fallen to the earth. The sky has receeded. Every mountain and island removed. And…. People are still running around alive???

                          Not only that, but they are hiding among the mountains which have been removed. They want the mountains which have been removed to fall on them.

                          You explain that to me and I will explain why there is no mention of anyone being let out of the Lake of Fire.

                          You get my point? My point is, I would think twice before I made the symbolic Lake of Fire a dividing line of whether or not God was going to torment millions for eternity as a sign of His justice.

                          Is that going to be your defense to God when He asks you why you continued to preach such a doctrine? To which God would likely reply, “My goodness PK. Didn’t you know symbolism when you saw it?”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ChasClean
                            Tell you what PK. I'll make you a deal.

                            Rev. 6: 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

                            Explain to me how in ch. 6 the sun turns black, the moon red, the stars fell to the earth, the sky has receeded and every mountain and island has been removed.

                            “Then”, that’s the way the next verse starts. Verse 15, THEN the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

                            My goodness. The sun is black. The stars have fallen to the earth. The sky has receeded. Every mountain and island removed. And…. People are still running around alive???

                            Not only that, but they are hiding among the mountains which have been removed. They want the mountains which have been removed to fall on them.

                            You explain that to me and I will explain why there is no mention of anyone being let out of the Lake of Fire.

                            You get my point? My point is, I would think twice before I made the symbolic Lake of Fire a dividing line of whether or not God was going to torment millions for eternity as a sign of His justice.

                            Is that going to be your defense to God when He asks you why you continued to preach such a doctrine? To which God would likely reply, “My goodness PK. Didn’t you know symbolism when you saw it?”


                            Great post! Unfortunately though the pastor thinks the lake of fire is literal despite the screaming symbolism of revelation....it bemuses me constantly, with a passage such as "then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire" you'd think that any possibility of it being literal would be vanquished as death being 'thrown' into anywhere wouldnt make any literal sense.....but unless the pastor has changed his mind all of a sudden then you're likely to get the same answer I got - the lake of fire is a literal burning lake and there's no symbology at all.........
                            "Either these curtains go or I do...."

                            - Oscar Wilde on deathbed

                            Comment


                            • Problem is, it is not the absolute knowledge that saves you. It is the faith that God is real and the Bible is true despite all "evidence" to the contrary that saves you.
                              Your Faith Does Not Save You. You are saved by grace. Through faith. Faith is the vehicle. How are your going to know what Jesus has done unless you come to a place of believing it?

                              And... it only becomes your faith, after God decides to give it to you. It is the faith of Jesus Christ you have been given. Not your own faith generated by yourself. You are not even able to generate your next breath by yourself. How can you even think you could generate spiritual life within yourself?

                              None of it, None, is from yourself. Just like the passage says.

                              The salvation is not from yourself.

                              The grace is not from yourself.

                              The faith is not from yourself.

                              Comment


                              • Whoa,

                                Doing good Refin. Keep up the good work!

                                Comment

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