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  • #31
    Originally posted by steko View Post
    Is heaven within creation or exterior to it?
    Heaven is in the spiritual, we cannot build a space ship to get there....

    It is the dimension God and the Angels abode in when creation took place.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by steko View Post
      Yes, indeed!
      Jesus rose from the dead in his body. However, he was glorified in God's presence with a Spiritual body.

      John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


      We will have a body like Jesus' Spiritual body when he transforms our earthly body to be like his.

      Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body
      Oh how I love the Word of God!

      Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
        Jesus rose from the dead in his body. However, he was glorified in God's presence with a Spiritual body.

        John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


        We will have a body like Jesus' Spiritual body when he transforms our earthly body to be like his.

        Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body
        Ok thank you guys I was just trying to understand the question,, I dont mean to take away from your One on One or this thread..

        Comment


        • #34
          Hello AMR,

          I see that you are viewing this thread. Please go to our one on one. I am excited about our debate.
          Oh how I love the Word of God!

          Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by FraterJoseph View Post
            Heaven is in the spiritual, we cannot build a space ship to get there....

            It is the dimension God and the Angels abode in when creation took place.
            So, in your estimation, that dimension is infinite and greater than GOD, and that the angels are not created but eternally equal with GOD?
            Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
            Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by FraterJoseph View Post
              Ok thank you guys I was just trying to understand the question,, I dont mean to take away from your One on One or this thread..
              You are not taking anything away from this thread. You made an excellent point about Jesus not going backwards by coming back in an earthly body to live on this earth.
              Oh how I love the Word of God!

              Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                Jesus rose from the dead in his body. However, he was glorified in God's presence with a Spiritual body.
                His 'Spiritual' body is the same physical body that walked on the earth, died on the cross and rose from the dead. It is now 'glorified' in that it has taken on qualities which it previously did not have.....qualities from heaven.

                John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

                This brings us back to the original argument regarding GOD's multipersonality. If there is an 'I with you' then there were at least two persons in existence in GOD before the world began.


                We will have a body like Jesus' Spiritual body when he transforms our earthly body to be like his.

                Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body
                Yes, indeed!
                Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
                Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by steko View Post
                  So, in your estimation, that dimension is infinite and greater than GOD, and that the angels are not created but eternally equal with GOD?
                  AH no not at all,It was where God was before he created US "the known" physical universe.

                  When He said "Let US make them in Our image" the place they were when that conversation took place.

                  Nothing can be greater than God for He creates ALL... Before US and after US.

                  And He did create the Angels.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by steko View Post
                    His 'Spiritual' body is the same physical body that walked on the earth, died on the cross and rose from the dead. It is now 'glorified' in that it has taken on qualities which it previously did not have.....qualities from heaven.
                    His Spiritual body is NOT the same physical body that walked on earth. Jesus walked on earth in a human body. When we have our new bodies at the resurrection, we will be given a body like his. If our bodies will be exactly as they are now, then we would not be told that what we will be is not known.

                    1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
                    Originally posted by steko View Post
                    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

                    This brings us back to the original argument regarding GOD's multipersonality. If there is an 'I with you' then there were at least two persons in existence in GOD before the world began.
                    There are three, and the three are all the same God.
                    Oh how I love the Word of God!

                    Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by FraterJoseph View Post
                      AH no not at all,It was where God was before he created US "the known" physical universe.

                      When He said "Let US make them in Our image" the place they were when that conversation took place.

                      Nothing can be greater than God for He creates ALL... Before US and after US.

                      And He did create the Angels.
                      If GOD existed 'within' something before He created, then that something logically would be greater than He and would necessarily be infinite, which would reduce Him to be less than He really is. There can only be one infinite. Infinite is all of it....whatever 'it' is. Only GOD is infinite being and His immensity prohibits His total containment in anything......except in the current immanent manner which is beyond our finite understanding.

                      I say there was only GOD existing in Himself before He created the heavens and the earth. He created the highest heaven as a 'place' to dwell in His 'manifest' Glory, within the created universe. The LORD Jesus is presently in that place.
                      Before creation there was only GOD. Then He created the material universe and everything in it including the angels.
                      Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
                      Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by steko View Post
                        If GOD existed 'within' something before He created, then that something logically would be greater than He and would necessarily be infinite, which would reduce Him to be less than He really is. There can only be one infinite. Infinite is all of it....whatever 'it' is. Only GOD is infinite being and His immensity prohibits His total containment in anything......except in the current immanent manner which is beyond our finite understanding.

                        I say there was only GOD existing in Himself before He created the heavens and the earth. He created the highest heaven as a 'place' to dwell in His 'manifest' Glory, within the created universe. The LORD Jesus is presently in that place.
                        Before creation there was only GOD. Then He created the material universe and everything in it including the angels.

                        Agree 100 percent... I just meant a place besides the physical universe but still a place He made,, thank you for putting it in a way I was trying too.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by FraterJoseph View Post
                          Then He created the material universe and everything in it including the angels..
                          But I dont think angels are part of the physical.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                            His Spiritual body is NOT the same physical body that walked on earth. Jesus walked on earth in a human body.
                            Jesus is still human. He came to redeem that which was lost in Adam and bring it up to a higher place than it was originally, not to anihilate it and start over with something entirely different.
                            The same physical/spiritual man Jesus is coming back just as He left.

                            Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


                            When we have our new bodies at the resurrection, we will be given a body like his.
                            Yes, indeed!

                            If our bodies will be exactly as they are now, then we would not be told that what we will be is not known.
                            I never said that our resurrected bodies will be exactly like they are now. They will be restored and glorified.....receiving new qualities from heaven.

                            Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

                            This mortal body shall put on an immortal quality.


                            1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
                            Yep!

                            There are three, and the three are all the same God.
                            I agree, but........three what?
                            Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
                            Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by steko View Post
                              If GOD existed 'within' something before He created, then that something logically would be greater than He and would necessarily be infinite, which would reduce Him to be less than He really is. There can only be one infinite. Infinite is all of it....whatever 'it' is. Only GOD is infinite being and His immensity prohibits His total containment in anything......except in the current immanent manner which is beyond our finite understanding.

                              I say there was only GOD existing in Himself before He created the heavens and the earth. He created the highest heaven as a 'place' to dwell in His 'manifest' Glory, within the created universe. The LORD Jesus is presently in that place.
                              Before creation there was only GOD. Then He created the material universe and everything in it including the angels.
                              The scriptures say that God created everything through Jesus.

                              God made Himself a Spiritual body before He made anything. This Spiritual body is of the Man Jesus. Jesus is the visible of the invisible God.

                              God made the plan for salvation to be through Jesus before anything was made.

                              Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

                              Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

                              Acts 2:23 NIV; 1 Pet 1:20 NIV.
                              Oh how I love the Word of God!

                              Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by FraterJoseph View Post
                                But I dont think angels are part of the physical.
                                This begs the question as to just what the 'spiritual' actually is.

                                I don't think we really know...... yet.

                                In scripture, the word 'spirit' equals 'wind, breath, etc' which are analogical terms. It means that which is 'spirit' is 'like' wind and breath, in that Spirit is invisible yet is an affecting cause into the physical world.
                                'ruach' and 'pneuma' are analogical but they really don't tell us what the 'Spiritual' actually is. Some have used the term 'substance' to say that everything, including GOD, is a distinct 'something'.
                                If everything except GOD is created being, and that which is created has substance of some sort, could that which is 'spirit' be simply more purified, rarified, higher form of substance?
                                We have a lot of assumptions of what spiritual existence actually means. I'm not claiming to know what exactly 'spirit' is, but just putting forth some questions about it and that I think that a lot that is said about it is based on unsupported presuppositions.

                                I am affirming that 'spiritual' does not necessarily exclude the 'physical' in Paul's explanation of the resurrected body. It does exclude mortality and corruption, but not the physical or material.
                                Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
                                Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

                                Comment

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