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Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

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  • Originally posted by Knight View Post
    Now...
    Prepare for 18 pounds of theological gobbledygook as a defense by the settled theists.
    God didn't command them to do it.
    God didn't say that they should do it.
    God didn't think that they should do it.

    In other words, it was their own idea.

    Originally posted by Interplanner
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Originally posted by Interplanner
    You're too literal to get it.
    Originally posted by Interplanner
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Knight View Post
      That isn't true. AMR has his own website and own following that would all have to change. AMR has as much if not more invested in his beliefs as I do I. And I am sure he would confirm this for you if you just asked.
      That is what I meant, I shouldn't have placed it after the sentence I did. What I meant was that he is as waist deep in Calvinism as you are in open theism.

      How do you answer a question like that?
      Well speaking of AMR, here is what he once said. I have to paraphrase, so I hope I don’t misrepresent him:

      He said that he does his best to leave his presuppositions at the door in his quest to develop a systematic theology. In his attempt to bridge the gap of implicit doctrine with explicit doctrine he searches for answers by participating in dialogue with “masters” of other doctrines, denominations and beliefs then of his own belief.

      He then went on to say that up to this point he is not convinced by any of the other doctrines and that Calvinism is what he believes is true.

      Now, this is probably what you and me, and most others would say they do. And, TOL is a fantastic place to do this.

      However, the million dollar question is how do we leave these presuppositions at the door? I don’t know how to answer that either. I wish I did.

      My point is that I believe the “deeper” one is entrenched in a particular doctrine, belief, or denomination, the harder it is. However, if a believer is up to his or her armpits in truth, that would be a good place to be.

      It's nothing personal Knight. At this point in my life I don't see open theism as truth, and I know you feel strongly different.
      (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Knight View Post
        You must not know Bob very well. Bob is one of the most gracious, friendly guys you will ever meet.
        I read his book (The Plot), and I have watched many of his YouTube videos.

        Yes, he seems like a very gracious and friendly guy. I'm sure he is a great guy.
        (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
          God didn't command them to do it.
          God didn't say that they should do it.
          God didn't think that they should do it.

          In other words, it was their own idea.

          He said it did not come into His mind that they should do it. You are saying that it WAS in His mind that they would do it.

          Bzzzzzz... sorry... can't buy that explanation.

          God meant what He said. He even said it twice so we could know He meant it.
          Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
          TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Knight View Post
            He said it did not come into His mind that they should do it. You are saying that it WAS in His mind that they would do it.

            Bzzzzzz... sorry... can't buy that explanation.

            God meant what He said. He even said it twice so we could know He meant it.
            nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination

            It doesn't say he didn't know they would do it. In the context, he says I didn't command it, I didn't speak it, I didn't even think that they should do it.
            Originally posted by Interplanner
            They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
            Originally posted by Interplanner
            You're too literal to get it.
            Originally posted by Interplanner
            The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
              My point is that I believe the “deeper” one is entrenched in a particular doctrine, belief, or denomination, the harder it is. However, if a believer is up to his or her armpits in truth, that would be a good place to be.
              I think that's true. Which is why most people who have never heard either side of the argument are appalled to find out that such a thing as Calvinism actually exists.
              Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
              TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination

                It doesn't say he didn't know they would do it. In the context, he says I didn't command it, I didn't speak it, I didn't even think that they should do it.
                See tetelestai? It doesn't matter how clear the evidence against your position is.... guys like STP and AMR will reject it anyway!
                Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                  See tetelestai? It doesn't matter how clear the evidence against your position is.... guys like STP and AMR will reject it anyway!
                  I think you're so focused on the "didn't come into my mind" segment, you lose the context of his point.
                  Originally posted by Interplanner
                  They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
                  Originally posted by Interplanner
                  You're too literal to get it.
                  Originally posted by Interplanner
                  The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                    nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination

                    It doesn't say he didn't know they would do it. In the context, he says I didn't command it, I didn't speak it, I didn't even think that they should do it.
                    19:5 does not use the term should. It just says "nor did it come into My mind". As in I never even thought of such a thing.

                    Comment


                    • Judges 14:4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD — that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

                      God says He was seeking an occasion, i.e., God was looking for the right moment to interact. Yet the settled theist is forced to believe that is a lie. After all, according to the settled theist God knows all occasions for all of time and has known eternally when He would move (which by the way is impossible for those who believe God is immutable).

                      Just one (more) of hundreds of clear examples.
                      Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                      TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                        I think you're so focused on the "didn't come into my mind" segment, you lose the context of his point.
                        Please explain the point, because I sort of thought that God not conceiving evil, was the point.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SaulToPaul View Post
                          I think you're so focused on the "didn't come into my mind" segment, you lose the context of his point.
                          The verse makes it own context. I don't need to finesse it, I can just take it at face value.

                          Even your own explanation defeats your theology. If it didn't come into God's mind that they should do it.... then it didn't come into God's mind that that they should do it! There was something NOT in God's mind that came to pass - exhaustive foreknowledge debunked.
                          Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
                          TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                            The verse makes it own context. I don't need to finesse it, I can just take it at face value.

                            Even your own explanation defeats your theology. If it didn't come into God's mind that they should do it.... then it didn't come into God's mind that that they should do it! There was something NOT in God's mind that came to pass - exhaustive foreknowledge debunked.
                            If God didn't know they were going to do it, why did He command against doing it 800 years before they did it?

                            (Deut 18:10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
                            (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tetelestai View Post
                              If God didn't know they were going to do it, why did He command against doing it 800 years before they did it?

                              (Deut 18:10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
                              800 years before anyone did it? Please show your work.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Knight View Post
                                The verse makes it own context. I don't need to finesse it, I can just take it at face value.

                                Even your own explanation defeats your theology. If it didn't come into God's mind that they should do it.... then it didn't come into God's mind that that they should do it! There was something NOT in God's mind that came to pass - exhaustive foreknowledge debunked.
                                Not really. If I walk on the Golden Gate Bridge, I know I can jump off if I want. But, it doesn't come into my mind that I should jump off.

                                Daniel 11 is the great equalizer, however. Future emotions and future decisions of future people listed in detail thousands of years before they take place.
                                Originally posted by Interplanner
                                They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
                                Originally posted by Interplanner
                                You're too literal to get it.
                                Originally posted by Interplanner
                                The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

                                Comment

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