Discussion thread: One on One: AMR and JCWR on the Temporality of God

[P8ntrDan]

It's true that parts of the future are settled but that is because God has determined to bring certain events to pass.

Do you think that the only way for God to get a desired outcome is to have seen the end of the table? Or is He powerful enough to bring an event to pass?

I think that time could be described as a creek flowing from it's source (creation) to it's end (the ocean of infinite bounds). Therefore, God would be able to be completely outside of time, such as a man standing beside the creek, watching it and knowing where it will go.

If a stick dropped in the creek at it's beginning was described as the way the actual events went from the beginning to the end, then the stick could float anywhere it needed to on the creek (allowing many different possible futures, but with the same destination), but God could also force that stick to go through certain places (events) by either moving it or changing the creek itself.

[Knight]

I think that time could be described as a creek flowing from it's source (creation) to it's end (the ocean of infinite bounds). Therefore, God would be able to be completely outside of time, such as a man standing beside the creek, watching it and knowing where it will go.

If a stick dropped in the creek at it's beginning was described as the way the actual events went from the beginning to the end, then the stick could float anywhere it needed to on the creek (allowing many different possible futures, but with the same destination), but God could also force that stick to go through certain places (events) by either moving it or changing the creek itself.

So what you are saying is....

Prior to creation God did NOT experience one event after another and so on. And if God wasn't experiencing reality sequentially prior to creation how could He get from there... to here?

Time requires a sequential reality. Rational existence requires a sequential reality.

God is real, rational, and Living. He experiences one event after another event and so on. There is no logical, or biblical reason to deduce that God isn't rational.

[P8ntrDan]

So what you are saying is....

Prior to creation God did NOT experience one event after another and so on. And if God wasn't experiencing reality sequentially prior to creation how could He get from there... to here?

Time requires a sequential reality. Rational existence requires a sequential reality.

God is real, rational, and Living. He experiences one event after another event and so on. There is no logical, or biblical reason to deduce that God isn't rational.

You're saying that based off of our rational existence that God would need sequential reality for his existance. Besides, it was just an analogy for time as we know it. The idea was that God sees the big picture and has the power to make what he needs to happen happen.

[Delmar]

... The idea was that God sees the big picture and has the power to make what he needs to happen happen.

I absolutely believe that is true! I also believe God experiences thing in the order that they really happen. God, being real, is not outside of reality!

[P8ntrDan]

I absolutely believe that is true! I also believe God experiences thing in the order that they really happen. God, being real, is not outside of reality!

Ok, so I may have expressed it poorly, but my first sentence in the previous post was trying to point out that we can't explain how God exists on our terms. He isn't outside of reality, but rather controls what is reality, making the impossible (such as healing a blind man or prophesying the future) possible.

[Knight]

Ok, so I may have expressed it poorly, but my first sentence in the previous post was trying to point out that we can't explain how God exists on our terms. He isn't outside of reality, but rather controls what is reality, making the impossible (such as healing a blind man or prophesying the future) possible.

So why invent some unbiblical concept about God creating time?

The Bible says no such thing.

I say.... stick with what is actually in God's word.

[P8ntrDan]

So why invent some unbiblical concept about God creating time?

The Bible says no such thing.

I say.... stick with what is actually in God's word.

And neither did I.

I was saying that God created time as we know it. (which of course came about by creating a the physical reality in which we live in).

[Knight]

And neither did I.

I was saying that God created time as we know it. (which of course came about by creating a the physical reality in which we live in).

Again that simply isn't true.

Time is the idea that reality happens sequentially i.e., one event follows another event and so on. There is NO biblical evidence or necessary logical argument that suggests God needed to create that type of reality.

Maybe...
What you are thinking of is our ability to measure time which is of course effected by physics and therefore creation.

Let me ask you this....
Do you believe there was a time when God didn't experience one event after another event and so on?

[P8ntrDan]

Again that simply isn't true.

Time is the idea that reality happens sequentially i.e., one event follows another event and so on. There is NO biblical evidence or necessary logical argument that suggests God needed to create that type of reality.

Maybe...
What you are thinking of is our ability to measure time which is of course effected by physics and therefore creation.

Let me ask you this....
Do you believe there was a time when God didn't experience one event after another event and so on?

There is no way for us to know that. The Bible states that in the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth. Therefore, the BIBLE states that the beginning of time (as far as we are concerned) started with creation. As to your question, I would assume that God experienced things as they happened, but for an omnipresent omnipotent God that would look different for him than it would for us. Before the beginning, there was a sense of 'time', or the passing of events/thoughts. Will that suffice?

[Knight]

There is no way for us to know that. The Bible states that in the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth. Therefore, the BIBLE states that the beginning of time (as far as we are concerned) started with creation.

It says no such thing!

Creation was the beginning of us and the physical universe.

Creation wasn't the beginning of....

God
Love
Power
Intelligence
Time

And any other inherent attribute of God. God is the living God, therefore as long as God has existed (eternally) there has been a sequence of events for Him, that's what makes Him a rational being.

As to your question, I would assume that God experienced things as they happened, but for an omnipresent omnipotent God that would look different for him than it would for us. Before the beginning, there was a sense of 'time', or the passing of events/thoughts. Will that suffice?

Think about what you are asserting....
If before creation there was no passing of events how did God get to creation??? How did that event come to pass if events didn't transpire?

[P8ntrDan]

It says no such thing!

Creation was the beginning of us and the physical universe.

Creation wasn't the beginning of....

God
Love
Power
Intelligence
Time

And any other inherent attribute of God. God is the living God, therefore as long as God has existed (eternally) there has been a sequence of events for Him, that's what makes Him a rational being.

Think about what you are asserting....
If before creation there was no passing of events how did God get to creation??? How did that event come to pass if events didn't transpire?

Golly Gee Batman!

Before the beginning, there was a sense of 'time', or the passing of events/thoughts.


If creation was the beginning of us, then it would also be the beginning of time as we know it.

Therefore, I'm NOT stating that creation was the beginning of 'time' for God. So what are you saying?

[P8ntrDan]

It says no such thing!

Creation was the beginning of us and the physical universe.

Creation wasn't the beginning of....

God
Love
Power
Intelligence
Time

And any other inherent attribute of God. God is the living God, therefore as long as God has existed (eternally) there has been a sequence of events for Him, that's what makes Him a rational being.

Think about what you are asserting....
If before creation there was no passing of events how did God get to creation??? How did that event come to pass if events didn't transpire?

On second thought....

God is the beginning and the end. So why do there need to be events before creation? There has to be a first event for God, so why not creation? It does say that in the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

(NOTE: This is a musing, not an invitation for obliteration, but rather a question. )

[Knight]

Therefore, I'm NOT stating that creation was the beginning of 'time' for God.

Great.

So what are you saying?

I am stating that time is not something that God created, and time is not something that God can be outside of. Time is a description of rational reality. I.e., the ever passing moment.

[P8ntrDan]

Great.

I am stating that time is not something that God created, and time is not something that God can be outside of. Time is a description of rational reality. I.e., the ever passing moment.

Excellent. Glad we're on the level now.

Lesson Learned: FULLY and CLEARLY explain yourself the FIRST time. (and don't make analogies...)

[CabinetMaker]

It's true that parts of the future are settled but that is because God has determined to bring certain events to pass.

Do you think that the only way for God to get a desired outcome is to have seen the end of the table? Or is He powerful enough to bring an event to pass?

This is one of those mysteries that I cannot fully grasp or explain. To my very human mind, the table analogy works for me. It works for me because it makes sense to me that God is not constrained by time. I do not know how God knows the things He knows, but I fully trust that He does.