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  • #16
    I think Godwin's Law applies to the first post. Not that abortion isn't terrible, or murderous but McCain's support (debatable) of abortion being compared to him killing Jews in the VERY FIRST POST seems a bit over the top.

    Also . . . .

    I smell fresh PWNAGE . . . .

    “We do not believe in God because we need to explain this or that feature of the world. That is what science is for. We believe in God because we see something deeper in the world, something that transcends the scientific explanations.” - Karl Giberson Ph.D.



    - The science and faith of theistic evolution explained.

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    • #17
      I'm somewhat surprised at the limited scope of the question being debated. Given the specific nature of the question I see no way that WondererInFog could lose, especially after having read his opening statement.

      I do have a bone to pick with WIF though. In his opening statement he said...
      Originally posted by WonderInFog
      3)We hold that refusing to vote for Obama or McCain does not equate to helping Obama or McCain's campaign. Rather, it simply has no effect on either campaign. The belief that a Republican not voting for McCain is helping Obama is an example of moral relativism and therefore directly contradicts the absolute truth of God's word and the absolute moral law of God.
      This seems to me to be an enormous error on WIF's part. He's laid down one of the biggest weapon in his arsenal in this debate because if a vote for Obama is immoral, which I believe it would be given WIF's own argument, then any vote that helps Obama would therefore be immoral. Talk about turning the tables on your debate opponent!

      Also, I would love to see either party in this debate answer the one question that I haven't yet been able to get anyone to answer. Actually I haven't checked the thread since the last time I asked it so that might not be true, but in any case, I'd love to see either party in this debate address the question, "Which of the two, Obama or McCain, is happier to see Keyes running for President in the state of Colorado?"

      The answer is obvious and I think it proves that WIF is incorrect when he asserts without foundation that "refusing to vote for Obama or McCain does not equate to helping Obama or McCain's campaign. Rather, it simply has no effect on either campaign. "

      Resting in Him,
      Clete
      sigpic
      "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Clete View Post
        I'm somewhat surprised at the limited scope of the question being debated. Given the specific nature of the question I see no way that WondererInFog could lose, especially after having read his opening statement.

        I do have a bone to pick with WIF though. In his opening statement he said...

        This seems to me to be an enormous error on WIF's part. He's laid down one of the biggest weapon in his arsenal in this debate because if a vote for Obama is immoral, which I believe it would be given WIF's own argument, then any vote that helps Obama would therefore be immoral. Talk about turning the tables on your debate opponent!

        Also, I would love to see either party in this debate answer the one question that I haven't yet been able to get anyone to answer. Actually I haven't checked the thread since the last time I asked it so that might not be true, but in any case, I'd love to see either party in this debate address the question, "Which of the two, Obama or McCain, is happier to see Keyes running for President in the state of Colorado?"

        The answer is obvious and I think it proves that WIF is incorrect when he asserts without foundation that "refusing to vote for Obama or McCain does not equate to helping Obama or McCain's campaign. Rather, it simply has no effect on either campaign. "

        Resting in Him,
        Clete
        That quote was actually made by GFW. WIF repeated in a section of points that he didn't agree but go into further detail. It was a little unclear, however, because of the formatting.

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        • #19
          Am I missing something?

          You've got a Battle Royale going on and you don;t bother to stick it in the current staff picks, or make it a sticky, or even post a link to it in the "Discussion thread for: Battle Royale XIII" thread?


          Who's in charge of this monkey house?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by kmoney View Post
            That quote was actually made by GFW. WIF repeated in a section of points that he didn't agree but go into further detail. It was a little unclear, however, because of the formatting.
            Kmoney is correct on that. We were simply noting our disagreement and moving on as it fell outside the scope of the question being discussed. Sorry if the way it was formatted made that unclear. :-(
            "When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."

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            • #21
              Originally posted by WandererInFog View Post
              Kmoney is correct on that. We were simply noting our disagreement and moving on as it fell outside the scope of the question being discussed. Sorry if the way it was formatted made that unclear. :-(
              So you do think that a vote for a third party effects one or the other of the two main campaigns?
              sigpic
              "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Clete View Post
                So you do think that a vote for a third party effects one or the other of the two main campaigns?
                It certainly can. In this particular election for example, Obama's hopes of winning in Georgia were largely dependent on Bob Barr's candidacy taking votes away from John McCain. You can actually see in the polls there that as Barr's numbers have faded, McCain's have increased to the point where now Obama has no real hope of winning the state. So we can see, with as close to empirical evidence as you're going to get about this sort of thing, that votes for Barr were largely votes being taken away from McCain.
                "When the lights go out all over the world, when history seems headed only into a dead end and total disaster, God brings forth light. He changes the direction of history and regenerates men and redirects events and institutions to fulfill His purposes."

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by koban View Post
                  Am I missing something?

                  You've got a Battle Royale going on and you don;t bother to stick it in the current staff picks, or make it a sticky, or even post a link to it in the "Discussion thread for: Battle Royale XIII" thread?

                  Who's in charge of this monkey house?
                  Did ya happen to see the giant banner on the TOL home page?
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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Alate_One View Post
                    ...abortion being compared to him killing Jews in the VERY FIRST POST seems a bit over the top.
                    Why?

                    If a fetus is a human (and it is) then the things they do to these helpless, voiceless humans are just as hideous (if not more so) than anything done in Germany.

                    - Burning with chemicals
                    - Dismemberment
                    - Scissors to the back of the head
                    - Brains sucked out
                    - Etc.

                    These are the things these innocent little babies suffer when the abortion "doctor" enters the room.
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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by kmoney View Post
                      That quote was actually made by GFW. WIF repeated in a section of points that he didn't agree but go into further detail. It was a little unclear, however, because of the formatting.
                      The rebuttal portion was primarily mine, so the formatting confusion is mine. I'm sorry about that. I did try to list the agreements & disagreements in a clear way & had no notion that listing something under the title "things upon which we disagree" would in any way be construed as agreement or, least of all, our position

                      Sorry for the confusion. I will endeavor to use colored lettering or something in future to make our positions more clear.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Knight View Post
                        Why?

                        If a fetus is a human (and it is) then the things they do to these helpless, voiceless humans are just as hideous (if not more so) than anything done in Germany.

                        - Burning with chemicals
                        - Dismemberment
                        - Scissors to the back of the head
                        - Brains sucked out
                        - Etc.

                        These are the things these innocent little babies suffer when the abortion "doctor" enters the room.
                        Absolutely. They are horrid, disgusting murders - even if abortion could be done "painlessly," it would still be murder.

                        However, we are not debating whether or not abortion is immoral; so the point is ... well, pointless.

                        GFW chose the topic. It is plain & excessively difficult to prove. I honestly do not know how they will manage it.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by nicholsmom View Post
                          Absolutely. They are horrid, disgusting murders - even if abortion could be done "painlessly," it would still be murder.

                          However, we are not debating whether or not abortion is immoral; so the point is ... well, pointless.

                          GFW chose the topic. It is plain & excessively difficult to prove. I honestly do not know how they will manage it.
                          Relax... didn't you notice I was responding to Alate_One?
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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Knight View Post
                            Relax... didn't you notice I was responding to Alate_One?
                            Sorry. Didn't mean to aim a punch at the official

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by nicholsmom View Post
                              GFW chose the topic. It is plain & excessively difficult to prove. I honestly do not know how they will manage it.
                              You guys lost the debate when you typed....

                              Originally posted by WandererInFog View Post
                              Question no further: abortion is murder every time. We completely agree on the question of abortion being immoral. This, however, is not the question to be answered in this battle.
                              If you really believe that abortion is murder in all cases then it is immoral to support a man who has admitted he will murder some children (as McCain has made it clear he supports abortion/murder in many instances).

                              Supporting murder is immoral. (Romans 1:32 )

                              End of debate.

                              Next!
                              Oh, wise guy eh?

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                              • #30
                                IMPORTANT NOTE!!!

                                I think koban made a good point (yes even a blind squirrel eats ), normally these discussion threads are in the Battle Royale Grandstands but for now I think I will move it to "Staff Picks" so that it gets more attention while the battle is in progress.
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