Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

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kmoney

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Someone brought up the first 2 verses of chapter 2 and I also think it is relevant. What does Jesus do as our advocate?

1Jo 2:1 ¶ My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
 

Door

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What a sentence is contained in verse 5! God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

This is a forceful and clear parallelism. John tells us what he means and then tells us what he does not mean. Every great positive truth of the Bible has its negative implication. If Jesus Christ is Lord, then I am not Lord. If God is filled with light then He is not filled with darkness.

The word light is used interchangeably by John in this letter and in his Gospel for the word truth. (See John 1:9, John 1:14 and 1 John 1:6.) What John means by 'light' and 'truth' is that his teaching is rooted more in the Old Testament understanding of 'light' and 'truth' than in the Greek philosophical understanding of these concepts. We need to closely examine the way that the teaching about light and truth in both the Gospel of John and 1 John is developed.

In the OT, 'light' has to do with finding the path. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light (Isaiah 9:2). Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path (Psalm 119:105). These texts show the basic connection that is present in the OT between light from God and showing His people the way for their feet. Light is also connected in the OT to an even more fundamental discovery, and that is the discovery of the character and nature of God by His people. For instance, Psalm 27 tells of David's discovery not only of the way, but of God Himself in the midst of David's trial. David had found the face of the Lord. He begins this psalm, The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? (Psalm 27:1). Likewise the text in Isaiah 9 moves from the pathway language to the intensely personal hope, For unto us a Child is born …" (Isaiah 9:6).

The Lord's summation of the great I AM sentences in John's Gospel is also set into this Old Testament way of thinking about light and truth. I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, except through Me (John 14:6). Note that this is the language of the roadway and the language of personal encounter with the Father. We find the way in the truth that is Jesus Christ, and because of that way we find the very source of light and life, who is God Himself. Psalms 27 and 119 are now fulfilled in this encounter with Jesus of Nazareth!

John has the same roadway and interpersonal, encounter mindset in his own thinking as he tells his readers about God. This will be made clear as the verses unfold in 1 John 1:5-10.

John announces the liberating news that God is not only the source of life but also of light, of truth. John dares to commit God to the way of light. God never deceives, misleads, and distorts. There can be no strategy of heavenly deception on God's part, because God is Light and His own character, His own essential nature, rejects such a strategy. God is not the prince of lies but the One who reveals and shows the way. Darkness hides and confuses pathways, but light makes the faces recognizable and the outline of the roadway discernible.

But, and this is important, it is not John who has created this message about God. John tells us that it is the message which he heard from God's speech. John has not really committed God to the way of truth, instead he has announced like a trumpeter this good news about God which God himself has already made known. God has spoken for Himself, and we have learned from the first five verses of 1 John that His speech is the speech of Life and of Light.

John's affirmation is the promise that God's self-disclosure is on the side of truth, and therefore when Jesus Christ is Lord of our life, we then see the road more clearly. Jesus Christ not only shows us who the Father is, He also shows us who we are and where we are. We see better our own faces and we see better the landscape. He is the Light who makes the roadway upon which we live and move and have our being come into focus. As C.S. Lewis once wrote in Miracles: We believe that the sun is in the sky at midday in summer not because we can clearly see the sun (in fact, we cannot) but because we can see everything else.

I believe that one way to test the worthiness of a person's world-view or religious claim is to ask the question: 'Does this world-view bring all of the parts of the puzzle of my life and world together?' Are the separate pieces that make up normal existence integrated so that each is meaningful and in clear focus when seen through the lens of this world-view? Jesus Christ as Lord and center of our lives makes sense of the parts just as He makes sense of the core. This is the characteristic of light. It is like a lamp unto our feet.
To good to get buried in the thread! :up:
 

voltaire

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no jerry, i dont tell them they must confess their sins in order to be saved. but if they have no sin( in their mind) , then exactly what are they being saved from? that is what verse 9 is all about. john has first told them that if they say they have no sin then the truth is not in them. they are being reminded in verse 9 that when they became saved that they had sin and and they were cleansed from all unrighteousness. john says if we confess our sins as a reminder that they at one realized that they were sinners in need of salvation. they needed to be reminded this because gnosticism had taught them that through secret knowledge, they could eventually rid themselves of all sin. it is similar to the perfectionism thru an act of the will that jesse morrell teaches.
 

JCWR

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In verses 6-10, the previous language of the roadway and the language of fellowship are now drawn together by John in a few simple and direct sentences.

God's truth is not an abstract philosophical ideal to be honored and held up for respectful admiration, but a relationship to be lived. It immediately becomes clear that God's truth is a vibrant roadway upon which we are to walk, and on a day-to-day basis. For John, Christian faith is not a matter of spiritual speculation or the mastery of secrets and code words. John continues to write with the same freshness and lack of pretense that has marked his opening sentences as he now sketches in how a person can live in fellowship with God and with God's people.

We are to walk in the light, and this means to walk in the way of disclosure. First we discover God in the way of light (1 John 1:6); we also discover ourselves in the way of light (1 John 1:8). What is it that we discover about God? And what do we discover about ourselves? Within these four verses we make these discoveries:

(1) God is on the side of truth and openness. Therefore, in order for us human beings to have common relationship with God, we must stand before God in the way of openness and light.

(2) John shares a surprise with his readers. We are told amazing good news at the very moment that we could not even dare to expect it. The way of light is dangerous, and its disclosure is threatening to every human being because the light shows up our own inadequacies and, even worse, our own wickedness. We have walked the way of harm. Now, in the presence of the light, that distorted way is in full view. We are warned not to attempt any cover-up.

What is it that will happen now as the way of our lives becomes apparent and exposed because of the light of God's justice and truth? We have walked so much of our lives in darkness, moreso than we will want to admit, and therefore John's command to us that we enter upon a totally exposed and brilliantly illuminated roadway is hardly good news. In theory we respect light but to step out into its sheer spotlight intensity is frightening. Then the surprise comes: the Creator of the world has visited the world in person! And we make the greatest discovery of all. The Lord who is the Light for the roadway is also our Companion on the roadway. This is the enormous exception for which we had no right to expect or hope. Jesus Christ is on the road with us as the Light who reveals our sinfulness so that we dare not play games with that fact: If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar. But Jesus Christ is also the Lord of Life who enables us to resolve injustice and sin and the tragedies of darkness. The resolution of the human crisis is a person who comes alongside us in the middle of the road.

John tells us that if we walk in the light the and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. The word blood is crude and definite for a Greek reader; it is profoundly rich and significant for a Jewish reader or any person grounded in the OT. For each reader the word implies death, but within the background of the Old Testament the word also means life. It is the life of Jesus Christ that is given by which we are resolved and made right for the road of light. John makes use of the strong Greek word katharizōto express the result of this encounter. The word means to 'clean out'. The English word 'catharsis' is from this Greek root. John's message to us is very basic. We are able to do only one thing ourselves and that is to step out into the light. The tragic confusion, anger, and hurtfulness that the light reveals in our lives is too much for us to handle and to resolve by ourselves. God Himself who brings the light also brings the help; that help is the Person Jesus Christ who gives His own life in our behalf. At just the right moment, we discover the enormous exception that God does not destroy the wanderers He finds upon the road. Rather He cleanses them and qualifies them for the way of light.

John insists one very important point. To walk in the light does not mean that a human being is sinless and flawless; rather to walk in the light means that a human being as a sinner is, in the light, fully aware that he or she is a sinner. That is the point! The surprise of this passage is that just such a sinner is not a lost cause, beyond help, but that at just the right moment the companion of our road—who himself is the source of the light which makes us recognize our guilt—now becomes the means of our help which resolves our guilt. The answer to the human tragedy therefore is not a secret to be learned, not an escape from the road into a more spiritual atmosphere, and not the denial of the problem, but the man Jesus Christ alongside.

John presents a classic summary sentence in verse 1 John 1:9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins…" The Greek word that is translated in our text by the word "confess" is the word homologeō. This word means 'to agree' or 'to declare alike'. It is made up of two Greek words, the prefix homo, which means literally 'alike', and logos, 'word, speech'. We are told by John that our responsibility is to agree with God about the nature of our crises. This openness and vulnerability on our part is what firmly plants our feet upon the pathway of light. There are no special code words to learn or special incense formulas to master, or elaborate rituals to perform!

We are to stand in the open position and admit who we are, agree with God and receive cleansing and forgiveness. The word 'forgive' in Greek means to leave behind, literally to abandon. The promise to us from John is that God will forgive, will leave behind our sins. He who is righteous will cleanse us from our anti-righteousness. We learn from John by his use of one single word that forgiveness is a costly gift. That one word is the word 'blood'. Jesus Christ has won for humankind the right to the way of light and life because of the event of his own lifeblood spent on our behalf. Forgiveness is not a transaction in a courtroom but the event that happens at a cross.

One final part of John's affirmation has to do with the fellowship of those who are on the roadway together with Jesus Christ. John teaches that the openness before God that enables our forgiveness also enables our fellowship. Fellowship is not founded upon deception and never has been. It is the common or shared crisis that the disciples experience together when the light of the road first confronts us, and that common crisis is resolved in the common forgiveness that comes when we recognize our sinfulness and our need for the Savior.

This means that the kind of fellowship that John is describing in this chapter is the fellowship of brokenness. The people we meet on the roadway of 1 John 1 are too wrung out by the experience of God's sheer honesty and light to play games about moral superiority or mystical one-upsmanship. These persons have met the good light, the enormous exception, and the main feelings that they have are gratitude and joy. John had promised it, and now we are able to feel it in this great chapter. The fellowship that emerges between such persons is not superficial but substantial. We have discovered the brokenness of each other and because of the broken healer we are drawn together into a fellowship of grace. It is a fellowship that is created by the act of God and by our walking in the light the blood of Jesus Christ keeps on cleansing us from every defilement due to sin.
 

Jerry Shugart

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no jerry, i dont tell them they must confess their sins in order to be saved. but if they have no sin( in their mind) , then exactly what are they being saved from?.
Hi voltaire,

No, nothing John said in Chapter 1 was in relationship to sin and salvation.

John was already saved when he wrote these words:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

The word "we" must include John, a sinner who was already saved. The word "our" must include John as well as the people to whom he was writing:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

John's instruction in regard to confessing sins is not in relation to sinners in need of salvation but instead sinners who are already saved in need of cleansing from defilement.

Or are you willing to argue that John was not saved and those who John wrote to were not saved even though their sins had been forgiven?

In His grace,
Jerry
 

kmoney

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Hi voltaire,

No, nothing John said in Chapter 1 was in relationship to sin and salvation.

John was already saved when he wrote these words:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

The word "we" must include John, a sinner who was already saved. The word "our" must include John as well as the people to whom he was writing:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

John's instruction in regard to confessing sins is not in relation to sinners in need of salvation but instead sinners who are already saved in need of cleansing from defilement.

Or are you willing to argue that John was not saved and those who John wrote to were not saved even though their sins had been forgiven?

In His grace,
Jerry
Could John have been talking about something that happened in the past?
 

dreadknought

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Evening JCWR,

Thanks for your posts. I have a question. In dealing with the schism involved with the target audience are you seeing 1 John 1:5-10 thru 1 John 2:1-27 as two tests of fellowship with God? An ethical test 1 John 1:5-2:17 and a Christological test 1 John 2:18-27

God bless,
...sadx
 
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voltaire

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that was a beautiful masterpiece JCWR!! john isnt telling his christian readers that they need to be cleansed of the unrighteousness of the
gnostic heresy. he is giving them the enormous truth of what it means to be in the light.
 

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Hi voltaire,

No, nothing John said in Chapter 1 was in relationship to sin and salvation.

John was already saved when he wrote these words:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

The word "we" must include John, a sinner who was already saved. The word "our" must include John as well as the people to whom he was writing:

"I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake" (1 Jn.2:12).​

John's instruction in regard to confessing sins is not in relation to sinners in need of salvation but instead sinners who are already saved in need of cleansing from defilement.

Or are you willing to argue that John was not saved and those who John wrote to were not saved even though their sins had been forgiven?

In His grace,
Jerry

:up:

Definitely to believers.


When a believer is filled with the Spirit, he is spiritual, and he walks in the light (I John 1:7); when a believer sins, he is carnal and walks in darkness (I John 1:6). These two "laws" are in constant conflict within every believer. For the execution of the Christian way of life, the law of spirituality must supersede the law of carnality.


As long as there is no unconfessed sin in your life, you remain in temporal fellowship with God, and you are filled with the Spirit. However, at the moment you sin, you are carnal and under the control of the old sin nature. When you confess your sins, God forgives you immediately, He blots out your sins, and you are not only back in fellowship, but as of that moment for one second at least, you are filled with the Spirit.
 

kmoney

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It would be interesting to get Jerry's take on how this confession works. Is it even possible to confess every sin? Or is it just a blanket confession every day? How does it work?
 

tetelestai

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That is the most godless perverted thing I have ever read. :down:

Another key point John is making is first, people must be saved by believing in Christ; secondly, while they (believers) produce only human good when they are out of fellowship, they can go from human good to divine good by means of 1 John 1:9
 

tetelestai

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It would be interesting to get Jerry's take on how this confession works. Is it even possible to confess every sin? Or is it just a blanket confession every day? How does it work?

I’m not Jerry, but my answer to your question is that the believer acknowledges all known sins, asks for forgiveness of the known sins, and then asks for forgiveness of all unknown sins.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It would be interesting to get Jerry's take on how this confession works. Is it even possible to confess every sin? Or is it just a blanket confession every day? How does it work?
Hi kmoney,

Let us look at the verse:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

I believe John is saying that if the Christian "confesses" (acknowledges) all of the sins of which he is aware then at that time he is cleansed from "all" unrighteousness.

In His grace,
Jerry
 

godrulz

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Tetelestai, do you believe God disciplines us to develop character in us? if so, then he would use everything at his disposal to accomplish that goal. he wouldnt just use the occasion of a sinful act to discipline. if you want to be a pro football player, you have to discipline your body thru lifting weights, exercise and healthy eating. you dont lift weights because you are being punished.
if God does indeed discipline, it certainly isnt over sinful acts. its to accomplish a goal in that believer. the sin issue was done away with at the cross. God no longer even considers a persons sins any longer.


Hebrews 12

Oops. I forgot this is not in your Bible.:nono:
 

godrulz

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The old, original MAD guys like Sir Robert Anderson, Charles Baker and J.C. O'Hair understood that those who "believed God," no matter what dispensation and message, received the "gift" of eternal life (Ro.6:23). They also understood that the Lord will not renege and take back any "gift" that He bestows (Ro.11:29). And since only the Lord can give or take eternal life then those who possess eternal life will never lose their salvation.

In His grace,
Jerry

Rom. 11:29 is in a context about corporate election of Israel, etc. for mission or service. It is not a proof text for OSAS and individual salvation issues. Other relevant verses are needed to decide between uncond. vs cond. eternal security.

The faithfulness of the Lord does not preclude the faithlessness of man. God responds to changing contingencies righteously. He does not condone 'godless believers', the mythical creature of OSAS.
 
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