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  • 1. cor.2.29.
    ...that no flesh should glory in His presence... is always good to quote
    vs. 30
    But of [God] are ye in Christ Jesus who is of God made unto us wisdom and righteousness and SANCTIFICATION and redemption.

    So we are made wise and holy as well as saved.

    Glory to God.
    One lavished upon in the Beloved
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    • Christ is the Lord our righteousness.
      One lavished upon in the Beloved
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      • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
        1. cor.2.29.
        ...that no flesh should glory in His presence... is always good to quote
        vs. 30
        But of [God] are ye in Christ Jesus who is of God made unto us wisdom and righteousness and SANCTIFICATION and redemption.

        So we are made wise and holy as well as saved.

        Glory to God.
        That is the same letter that says this:

        1 Corinthians 15:34
        34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

        Learn to read what is written.

        _____
        The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
        ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

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        • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
          That is the same letter that says this:

          1 Corinthians 15:34
          34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
          Some evangelicals will always interpret these scriptures as saved/lost but they are not...I think ALOT of christian who are saved do not have an awful lot of knowledge of God.
          One lavished upon in the Beloved
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          • Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
            I am a Gentile, to the best of my knowledge, who has been called to the faith expression of Messianic Judaism. Are you a Christian as I am or an accuser of the Body? My use of the Greek or the Hebrew shouldn't affect you one way or the other. TMPOV, anyone who believes in Yeshua is Messianic.
            I am a Christian. It is a misunderstanding of the Bible to expect Gentiles to be Jewish-like.

            Who has called you to Messianic Judaism? Too many that I know of are legalistic and unbiblical and not effective at reaching Jews.

            It is your right to identify with this, but not if aspects of the movement feel it is THE best expression of biblical Christianity for the world and that God intends to turn all Evangelicals to the Messianic movement as a sign of the end times, etc. It can become divisive, sectish, superspiritual arrogant, etc.
            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
              In other words, you put a blanket over your head and refuse to address the reasons discerning people have problems with OSAS.
              Technically they are able to commit any sin, even those that are crimes, and retain their salvation; for it is not theirs to forfeit.

              But if one is in Christ they are in the Spirit and not the flesh [wherein sin dwells], so as long as they focus on the Spirit and not the flesh why would they ever want to commit any of those things you listed?

              Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
              And that is the hypocrisy of OSAS that makes it into a false doctrine.
              How is that hypocritical?
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              • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                I am a Christian. It is a misunderstanding of the Bible to expect Gentiles to be Jewish-like.
                Yes, heaven forbid we be anything like Yeshua, eh?

                Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                Who has called you to Messianic Judaism? Too many that I know of are legalistic and unbiblical and not effective at reaching Jews.
                Oh yeah, this is pertinent to the OP!
                Godrulz, who leads you on your faith walk? The same Ruach HaKodesh/the Holy Spirit that leads me. Come on!

                Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                It is your right to identify with this, but not if aspects of the movement feel it is THE best expression of biblical Christianity for the world and that God intends to turn all Evangelicals to the Messianic movement as a sign of the end times, etc. It can become divisive, sectish, superspiritual arrogant, etc.
                I'm so glad the Ruach has your permission to lead me where He wills.
                I have no desire to turn all to Messianic Judaism. I'm content that God reaches people where they are and is who He is to all who believe in Him, His Son and the Ruach. I may not agree with all the doctrine man has come up with but I figure God is in control.
                I AM the pie lady!!

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                • Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                  Yes, heaven forbid we be anything like Yeshua, eh?



                  Oh yeah, this is pertinent to the OP!
                  Godrulz, who leads you on your faith walk? The same Ruach HaKodesh/the Holy Spirit that leads me. Come on!



                  I'm so glad the Ruach has your permission to lead me where He wills.
                  I have no desire to turn all to Messianic Judaism. I'm content that God reaches people where they are and is who He is to all who believe in Him, His Son and the Ruach. I may not agree with all the doctrine man has come up with but I figure God is in control.
                  I'll give you this much credit; you sure are one angry, obstinate,
                  contentious, wisecracking, and pretentious individual! Also, you're
                  extremely unpleasant, that's what I like the most about you!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
                    I'll give you this much credit; you sure are one angry, obstinate,
                    contentious, wisecracking, and pretentious individual! Also, you're
                    extremely unpleasant, that's what I like the most about you!
                    Don't worry, you'll get over it!
                    I AM the pie lady!!

                    sigpic

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                    • Paul did not convert people to Messianic Christianity, but to Christ. Gentile believers and churches did not and did not have to bring Jewish elements into their worship. Messianic Judaism may fit Jewish Christians in the first century, but it is not a biblical mandate for modern evangelicals/Gentiles. We are not commanded to perpetuate Jewish things like Feasts (Herbert Armstrong cult makes this mistake), circumcision, etc. Jew/Gentile one in Christ has the NT church looking different than Messianic Judaism or even first century early church made up of many former Jews in transition. There is great danger of legalism, externals, superiority, religion vs freedom in Christ.

                      It would seem odd to me to go to Africa and have a Gentile from Texas call himself a Messianic Rabbi and bring the Jewish OT elements to his church planting, evangelism, discipleship, etc. There is no mandate or precedence for this. This does not mean we cannot contextualize the gospel for Jewish or Muslim or Chinese people, but we have to distinguish culture from biblical principles. We do not need more denominations, sects, etc. competing, but we need biblical expressions of Church. We do not need to perpetuate circumcision, dietary or ceremonial laws, Passover, but we do need to uphold Lord's Supper, water baptism, moral laws.
                      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                        Technically they are able to commit any sin, even those that are crimes, and retain their salvation; for it is not theirs to forfeit.

                        How is that hypocritical?

                        Matthew 15:7-8
                        7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
                        8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

                        Learn to read what is written.

                        _____
                        The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                        ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                          Paul did not convert people to Messianic Christianity, but to Christ. Gentile believers and churches did not and did not have to bring Jewish elements into their worship. Messianic Judaism may fit Jewish Christians in the first century, but it is not a biblical mandate for modern evangelicals/Gentiles. We are not commanded to perpetuate Jewish things like Feasts (Herbert Armstrong cult makes this mistake), circumcision, etc. Jew/Gentile one in Christ has the NT church looking different than Messianic Judaism or even first century early church made up of many former Jews in transition. There is great danger of legalism, externals, superiority, religion vs freedom in Christ.
                          Please be so kind as to show me where I've put forth a mandate for Messianic Judaism.
                          God has made no distinction between Jews and Gentiles so why do we? It's foolish, however, to ignore the fact that the Jerusalem Council put forth a need for Gentiles to abstain from foods polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood, having confidence that most Gentiles had heard and would continue to hear God's Law (or as James put it "Moses") preached in every city and so knew it. You also need to understand that Paul didn't convert anyone. Any changing needing to be done in one's heart is done by Ruach HaKodesh.

                          Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                          It would seem odd to me to go to Africa and have a Gentile from Texas call himself a Messianic Rabbi and bring the Jewish OT elements to his church planting, evangelism, discipleship, etc. There is no mandate or precedence for this. This does not mean we cannot contextualize the gospel for Jewish or Muslim or Chinese people, but we have to distinguish culture from biblical principles. We do not need more denominations, sects, etc. competing, but we need biblical expressions of Church. We do not need to perpetuate circumcision, dietary or ceremonial laws, Passover, but we do need to uphold Lord's Supper, water baptism, moral laws.
                          I think it would be more confusing to folks in Africa to hear someone say that Yeshua's ways are no longer valid today. Are we or are we not grafted into the vine Yeshua, the Son of the God of Israel? If that isn't enough precedence for you, I don't know what would be. I think it would be more confusing for folks trying to figure out who it is they are to worship, Father, Son and Ruach or Paul. Paul is not on my worship list nor is he responsible for any "conversions."
                          You don't know very much about Messianic Judaism if you think circumcision is pressed. Dietary law?....ever read Mark 7:18-19? Ceremonial laws such as women covering their heads when they pray or prophesy as outlined in 1Cor. 11:5 or the ceremonial law of marriage? And what is wrong with remembering the necessity of the Lamb's blood for salvation which is reflected in Passover as well as the last supper of Yeshua with the twelve. Messianic Jews are baptized with both water and Ruach HaKodesh just like others. You should examine your heart to understand why you are so keen to draw distinctions that God does not. Additionally, it concerns me that you would consider denominations to be in competition with one another. Competition for what? God reaches people where He sees fit, whether that is in Catholicism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, Lutheranism, Messianic Judaism, etc. We're not in competition with each other. We're in the Body together.
                          I AM the pie lady!!

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                          • Originally posted by IMJerusha View Post
                            Don't worry, you'll get over it!
                            True, but, I doubt you will!

                            Comment


                            • The Acts 15 issues were concessions of practical wisdom in light of the transitional nature of the early church from a Jewish Christian base to a Gentile (and Jewish) Christian base. They are descriptive of a first century local situation, not a prescription for the normative Church Age. They related to principles of grey areas and not bringing unnecessary offense (Paul adapted to the target audience without compromising truth). They are not injunctions for NT Christianity outside of the first century milieu and early church incipiency that was to not be perpetuated in all cultures and all times. This is a hermeneutical issue.


                              There are significant issues to put Gentiles under the yoke of Judaism or to think that God wants us to perpetuate Jewish-Christian syncretism. This is categorically unbiblical, non-Pauline. You have freedom to do these things, but don't claim them to be normative, biblical, superior, necessary.

                              Jesus was a Jew, not a post-cross Christian, so don't confuse the issues and think that North American evangelicals should wear sandals and be observant in a Jewish or Jewish Christian sense. The gospel negates the need for all of this.
                              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Lighthouse View Post
                                Technically they are able to commit any sin, even those that are crimes, and retain their salvation; for it is not theirs to forfeit.

                                But if one is in Christ they are in the Spirit and not the flesh [wherein sin dwells], so as long as they focus on the Spirit and not the flesh why would they ever want to commit any of those things you listed?


                                How is that hypocritical?

                                There you go. Well said.

                                I wonder why it is that those who think someone can lose his salvation doesn't understand what living in the Spirit actually means. There isn't a believer alive who wants to sin...we've been freed from the power it had over us. When we fail, we are duly chastened as sons. "That form of doctrine" is speaking of the Gospel and believing unto salvation .

                                Romans 6:17-18
                                But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

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