ECT Are all our righteousnesses filthy rags or not?

God's Truth

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Different isn't necessarily better but I'd have to agree that it is, in fact, better because the law, which was in our way, has been taken out of the way. The Law, which had a ministry of death, has ended in so far as righteousness is concerned. How is that not better?
When Jesus walked the earth, he taught that one and only good news.

Paul did not come and teach a different and better one than the one Jesus taught.

Jesus is still the One who accomplished that but that's beside the point. That point being that Jesus didn't preach it and neither did anyone else until Paul.

No way was it first taught by Paul.

There was already a church with Jews and saved Gentiles with the Holy Spirit before Paul.


Look, you can pound the pulpit all you want but it won't change the fact that there is no one in the bible other than Paul that says anything similar to "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

When Jesus walked the earth he taught TO BELIEVE IN HIM.

Jesus didn't teach it, Peter, James and John didn't teach it and neither did anyone else other than the Apostle Paul who was given that gospel not by men but by direct divine revelation and was sent, again by revelation, to the Twelve in order to explain his gospel to them!
Jesus is the one who taught the twelve apostles when he walked the earth and he is the one who taught Paul.

Now those are the biblical facts (part of them, anyway). You can choose to believe them and formulate your doctrine around them or you can choose to be emotionally motivated away from those fact because they for some reason make you think they somehow demean Jesus Christ, Who was the One who told Paul what to peach, where to preach it and who to preach it to in the first place.
It is demeaning to believe and teach that Paul preaches a different and better gospel than the one taught by Jesus. It isn't only demeaning it is false.

What Jesus said (taught) while on Earth was said to Israel.
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Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”​

That is because Jesus had to come first for those who already belonged to God by faith.

Jesus said when he is crucified then all can come to him to be saved.

Paul calls it Jews first then Gentiles, and SO DOES PETER:


Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Romans 2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Acts 3:26 When God raised up His servant, He sent Him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 18:6 But when they opposed and insulted him, he shook out his garments and told them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."


If it is embarassing to you then you really do need to stop claiming to have formed your doctrine based on what the bible says because Paul is the one who repeatedly calls it "my gospel" an inf fact states explicitly that men will be judged by his gospel.


He referes to it in several ways but that doesn't change the fact that he repeatedly referred to it as "my gospel", as I have just proven.

Paul doesn't mean it the way you say it.

Paul says it is Christ's gospel, and he says God's gospel and he says our gospel.

Saying it doesn't make it so. It's as if you don't understand what the point even is.


No, you didn't. What you did was change the subject and then proved the new topic.


Amen! This passage says nothing that contradicts a word I've said nor a syllable withwhich I disagree.

I am not responsible for your misunderstanding nor am I responsible to read your mind. The entire discussion is still right here for you or anyone else to read. If you need to read it to follow the discussion then I invite you to do so but just repeating your claims don't count as rebuttal arguments and proving points that were never in dispute doesn't either.


This is mindlessness.

If this were the case, then there would have never been an Apostle Paul to begin with. Jesus already has twelve apostles. If Paul wasn't doing anything different then there would have been no need for a thirteenth apostle.
Paul was DESTROYING the church, so Jesus made Paul an apostle so too to show that even people as sinful as Paul could be saved.

Paul stopped destroying the church so it grew, and others who didn't believe they could be forgiven for their sins now knew they could.
 

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Paul was DESTROYING the church, so Jesus made Paul an apostle so too to show that even people as sinful as Paul could be saved.

Paul stopped destroying the church so it grew, and others who didn't believe they could be forgiven for their sins now knew they could.

Paul hindered the Church, and they Sent him Away.

Act 9:30 Which when the brethren knew, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.
Act 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

The Apostles were making Converts Daily from among both Jews and Gentiles.

Paul cursed the Jews by wiping his feet to them, while the Apostles were making converts daily.
 

God's Truth

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Paul hindered the Church, and they Sent him Away.
Jesus sent Paul far away TO THE GENTILES because the Jews didn't trust Paul.
When Paul preached Jesus, the Jews thought Paul was just trying to trick them into saying they believed so he could drag them off to prison.
Of course Jesus knew all along that he would be sent far away to the Gentiles.
 

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Jesus sent Paul far away TO THE GENTILES because the Jews didn't trust Paul.
When Paul preached Jesus, the Jews thought Paul was just trying to trick them into saying they believed so he could drag them off to prison.
Of course Jesus knew all along that he would be sent far away to the Gentiles.

No actually the Jews REJECTED Paul, as his doctrine that the the 10 Commandments were EVIL did not compute with the Jews.
 

God's Truth

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Actually the Jews rejected Paul, as he taught the 10 Commandments were done away with.

The Jews had none to do with Paul's teachings.

Read the Bible.

No such thing what you are saying.

Read this and believe:

Paul was an apostle to the Jews too; but was only sent away to the Gentiles because the Jews didn't trust Paul, they thought he was just trying to trick them into saying they believe in Jesus so that he could drag them off to prison.

Saul put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, he cast his vote against them. Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison. Acts 22:4, Acts 22:20, Acts 26:10, Acts 8:3.

Read here where Paul tells the Lord Jesus Christ about how the Jews think he is just trying to trick them, and then Jesus sends him to the Gentiles.

Acts 22:19 ‘Lord,’ I answered, ‘they know very well that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in You. 20And when the blood of Your witness Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ 21Then He said to me, ‘Go! I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”

Acts 26:11
Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. I was so obsessed with persecuting them that I even hunted them down in foreign cities.
 

God's Truth

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Paul went to the Gentiles, who had never heard of the 10 Commandments.

Of course they heard of the ten commandments.

The Gentiles knew that they were considered unclean, and they heard the scriptures spoken publicly.


Acts 15:21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

This is what Peter said to a Gentile:

Acts 10:28 He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

How did that Gentile know?

Luke 7:2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.”

How did that Gentile Centurion know about the Jews and love their nation and build their synagogue?
 

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No such thing what you are saying.

Read this and believe:

Paul was an apostle to the Jews too; but was only sent away to the Gentiles because the Jews didn't trust Paul, they thought he was just trying to trick them into saying they believe in Jesus so that he could drag them off to prison.

Saul put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, he cast his vote against them. Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison. Acts 22:4, Acts 22:20, Acts 26:10, Acts 8:3.

Read here where Paul tells the Lord Jesus Christ about how the Jews think he is just trying to trick them, and then Jesus sends him to the Gentiles.

Acts 22:19 ‘Lord,’ I answered, ‘they know very well that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in You. 20And when the blood of Your witness Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ 21Then He said to me, ‘Go! I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”

Acts 26:11
Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. I was so obsessed with persecuting them that I even hunted them down in foreign cities.

People in general, an especially (Christians) the early church do not like Paul.

This is more prominent when Paul says, of the Apostles

Gal_2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

And against Scripture Paul does this,

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

You are to take your brother in to secrete to rebuke him, not do it to his face in front of everyone.
 

God's Truth

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People in general, an especially (Christians) the early church do not like Paul.

This is more prominent when Paul says, of the Apostles

Gal_2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

And against Scripture Paul does this,

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

You are to take your brother in to secrete to rebuke him, not do it to his face in front of everyone.

Only a person ensnared would preach that God couldn't preserve His word in a book with Apostles who all preached the truth.
 
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Clete

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Aww, and here I was enjoying you steamrolling GT beyond all recognition in this discussion. :(

Sorry! I can only take so much.

I mean, where is there to go when someone sticks to their mindless doctrine even in the face of the clearest possible reading of the text of scripture?

Someone could be forgiven for not knowing that Moses was a murder. Not everyone reads the bible. Even some who have really strongly held doctrines haven't bothered to read the bible. But when you start the conversation by claiming that you argue your doctrine from scripture it's a different story.

If GT had read that passage of scripture that tells the story of Moses murdering the Egyptian and then came back here and said something like "Well, I hadn't ever realized that Moses was guilty of murder, let me modify my position to (fill in the blank).", then I could have continued regardless of what the modification was because at least there was some movement, some indication that the text of scripture had some effect, some influence on GT's doctrine but there was none of that. It was essentially...

GT: "Moses was not a murderer."

Clete: "Here's the passage that shows he was a murderer."

GT: "It doesn't matter what the bible says, Moses was not a murderer, so there!"​

There's not anywhere one can one go from there. The conversation has been dead-ended by stubbornness or stupidity or both.
 

Clete

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People in general, an especially (Christians) the early church do not like Paul.

This is more prominent when Paul says, of the Apostles

Gal_2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

And against Scripture Paul does this,

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

You are to take your brother in to secrete to rebuke him, not do it to his face in front of everyone.
I'm not sure that I've ever seen such a brazenly arrogant display of biblical ignorance in my entire life!

Donald Trump knows the bible better than this!
 

God's Truth

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Sorry! I can only take so much.

I mean, where is there to go when someone sticks to their mindless doctrine even in the face of the clearest possible reading of the text of scripture?

Someone could be forgiven for not knowing that Moses was a murder. Not everyone reads the bible. Even some who have really strongly held doctrines haven't bothered to read the bible. But when you start the conversation by claiming that you argue your doctrine from scripture it's a different story.

If GT had read that passage of scripture that tells the story of Moses murdering the Egyptian and then came back here and said something like "Well, I hadn't ever realized that Moses was guilty of murder, let me modify my position to (fill in the blank).", then I could have continued regardless of what the modification was because at least there was some movement, some indication that the text of scripture had some effect, some influence on GT's doctrine but there was none of that. It was essentially...
GT: "Moses was not a murderer."

Clete: "Here's the passage that shows he was a murderer."

GT: "It doesn't matter what the bible says, Moses was not a murderer, so there!"​





There's not anywhere one can one go from there. The conversation has been dead-ended by stubbornness or stupidity or both.

You are not telling it like it is YOU ARE LYING about what I said.

You are bearing false witness.

I said Moses was not a murderer in the same way David was.

Moses thought he was helping his brother Hebrews from a violent man.

David killed a man to cover up adultery and a child.

Moses killing that man compared to the reason why David murdered Uriah was more of a difference like accidentally killing someone or putting the law in your own hands.to that of deceitful murder to cover up another crime.
 

God's Truth

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Different isn't necessarily better but I'd have to agree that it is, in fact, better because the law, which was in our way, has been taken out of the way. The Law, which had a ministry of death, has ended in so far as righteousness is concerned. How is that not better?

Jesus taught the new law, it is his Last Will and Testament, the Everlasting Covenant.


Jesus taught the new law, the law that requires faith.

Paul taught that exact same law as Jesus taught.

Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.


Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

John 12:42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;


Jesus is still the One who accomplished that but that's beside the point. That point being that Jesus didn't preach it and neither did anyone else until Paul.


You claim Paul came along and changed a man's Last Will and Testament, and a Covenant that God made! Paul SAYS that NO MAN can change a WILL or a Covenant.

Galatians 3:15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.


Look, you can pound the pulpit all you want but it won't change the fact that there is no one in the bible other than Paul that says anything similar to "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Jesus didn't teach it, Peter, James and John didn't teach it and neither did anyone else other than the Apostle Paul who was given that gospel not by men but by direct divine revelation and was sent, again by revelation, to the Twelve in order to explain his gospel to them!

Jesus taught his apostle while he walked the earth that people HAD TO HAVE FAITH in him.

Jesus taught the same thing to Paul.


Now those are the biblical facts (part of them, anyway). You can choose to believe them and formulate your doctrine around them or you can choose to be emotionally motivated away from those fact because they for some reason make you think they somehow demean Jesus Christ, Who was the One who told Paul what to peach, where to preach it and who to preach it to in the first place.


What Jesus said (taught) while on Earth was said to Israel.
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Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”​

What Jesus taught was TO THE WHOLE WORLD, to WHOMEVER, to ALL, and to EVERYONE.


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If it is embarassing to you then you really do need to stop claiming to have formed your doctrine based on what the bible says because Paul is the one who repeatedly calls it "my gospel" an inf fact states explicitly that men will be judged by his gospel...
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Romans 2:12For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began


2 Timothy 2:8Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.​


He referes to it in several ways but that doesn't change the fact that he repeatedly referred to it as "my gospel", as I have just proven.


Saying it doesn't make it so. It's as if you don't understand what the point even is.


No, you didn't. What you did was change the subject and then proved the new topic.


Amen! This passage says nothing that contradicts a word I've said nor a syllable withwhich I disagree.

I am not responsible for your misunderstanding nor am I responsible to read your mind. The entire discussion is still right here for you or anyone else to read. If you need to read it to follow the discussion then I invite you to do so but just repeating your claims don't count as rebuttal arguments and proving points that were never in dispute doesn't either.


This is mindlessness.

If this were the case, then there would have never been an Apostle Paul to begin with. Jesus already has twelve apostles. If Paul wasn't doing anything different then there would have been no need for a thirteenth apostle.


You're a liar. You aught to be ashamed of yourself.

I just directly quoted the passage that proves this stupidity false!

In fact, I'm not going any further. We're done.

It turns out that what I said earlier does seem to apply to you after all. You aren't interested in anything the bible says unless it lines up with your doctrine. You're just as big a waste of time as anyone else on this website.

I repent of having spent all this time with you. I wish I hadn't done it. I won't be making the same mistake again.

Clete

It was God’s Law given to Moses but it was called the Law of Moses.

Luke 2:22 [ Jesus Presented in the Temple ] When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
John 7:23 Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath?
Acts 13:39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.
Acts 15:21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
Acts 28:23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.
1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned?
Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Paul calls it the GOSPEL OF CHRIST.

Romans 15:19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.
1 Corinthians 9:12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.
2 Corinthians 2:12[ Ministers of the New Covenant ] Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,
2 Corinthians 9:13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.
2 Corinthians 10:14 We are not going too far in our boasting, as would be the case if we had not come to you, for we did get as far as you with the gospel ofChrist.
Galatians 1:7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervertthe gospel of Christ.
Philippians 1:27 [ Life Worthy of the Gospel ] Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel
1 Thessalonians 3:2 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and co-worker in God’s service in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith,


Paul also calls it OUR GOSPEL:

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospelis veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul AND PETER call it the Gospel of God.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God
Romans 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 11:7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?
1 Thessalonians 2:8 so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well.
1 Thessalonians 2:9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you.
1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Thessalonians 2:2 We had previously suffered and been treated outrageously in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in the face of strong opposition.

There is only one Gospel, and it is God's Gospel, the Gospel of Christ, Paul's Gospel, and OUR GOSPEL.
Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.


The gospel of God, the Gospel of Christ, Paul’s gospel, and our gospel.
 

God's Truth

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The criminal on the cross next to Christ was a murderer, or at least he was very likely so.

The word used to describe the criminals crucified with Christ is λῃστής. The literal translation is "robber" which is why some English translations use the word "thief" but the normal word for thief is κλέπτης and it doesn't mean the same thing. The latter is a simple thief, like a pick pocket or other petty thief which would not have warranted a death sentence of any sort and certainly not a crucifixion. The word λῃστής which is used in Matthew and Mark, denotes a violent form of robbery. It is used by Jesus in Luke 10:30...
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Luke 10:30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.​




Further, Barabbas was called called a κλέπτης in John 18:40...
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John 18:40 Then they all cried again, saying, “Not this Man, but Barabbas!” Now Barabbas was a robber.​




And we know for a fact that Barabbas was more than a mere thief because Mark tells us...
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Mark 15:7 And there was one named Barabbas, who was chained with his fellow rebels; they had committed murder in the rebellion.​




And since Jesus took Barabbas' place on the cross, it seems likely that the three were connected with eachother and that the criminals on the cross were those "fellow rebels" which were chained with Barabbas.

Lastly, the biblical account itself tells us that even if it wasn't murder per se, whatever their offense was, it was worthy of death by the criminal's own confession...
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Luke 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”​



Note the Jesus did not rebuke the criminal and state the he was being punished unjustly which He could have easily done. What He did say, however, was that this man who just confessed himself guilty of a capital crime was to be with Him in Paradise that very day.

Clete


Look at Clete double talking and triple talking and quadruple talking to get out of the error he spoke about there being a murderer who was crucified with Jesus.
Clete even tries to use a different language to try to explain how the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.

The scriptures PLAINLY says TWO THIEVES, not a murderer.


King James Bible
Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
 

JudgeRightly

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Look at Clete double talking and triple talking and quadruple talking to get out of the error he spoke about there being a murderer who was crucified with Jesus.
Clete even tries to use a different language to try to explain how the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.

The scriptures PLAINLY says TWO THIEVES, not a murderer.


King James Bible
Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Then two robbers were crucified with Him, one on the right and another on the left. - Matthew 27:38 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew27:38&version=NKJV

Then crucified with him are two robbers, one on the right hand, and one on the left, - Matthew 27:38 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew27:38&version=YLT

"Thieves" works. "Robbers" is a better translation.

Again, the meaning of the word in the original language should be taken into consideration when determining what a passage is trying to say. You refuse to even consider that.

Also...

But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” - Luke 23:40-41 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke23:40-41&version=NKJV

The standard of justice doesn't change just because you're under the rule of another nation.

They deserved to be put to death, and justly so.

The just punishment, as defined by God, for theft (if in fact they were thieves) was NOT capital punishment, but rather restitution.

The Scriptures don't lie, GT, they were justly being put to death for their crimes, and the second criminal admitted as much. Which means that they weren't just thieves, but had committed a crime deserving of death, in this case, murder (or even attempted murder) over property. For as Moses wrote:

​​​​​​​“He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. . . . “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die. - Exodus 21:12,14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:12,14&version=NKJV
 
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