ECT THE SIN THAT LEADS TO DEATH ?

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Why not all, then? Why only save some?

I question why God was merciful to save any . . .

Why this person, and not that person? You haven't answered my question

Yes I did. I answered that I do not know.


Allow me to reword it, because it is foundational to answering your question:

Would you agree that logic would follow that if God simply decided, before the foundation of the earth, whom He would regenerate, and would not regenerate, arbitrarily, that it would make Him inherently unjust, and therefore not worthy of our worship?


No, I would not agree that God is unjust in determining to show mercy to many undeserving sinners through the sacrifice of His only begotten Son on their behalf.

By doing so, He has manifested His saving GRACE in this world.

That is a wonder and the greatest good.




But my question is challenging exactly what you are proposing God did.

I DO KNOW you should not insinuate God ever acts unjustly, just because you do not comprehend His purposes or acknowledge His works.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Why not all, then? Why only save some? Why this person, and not that person? You haven't answered my question, so...
If another voice helps... For me: Because in the same way 10 signs/judgement hardened Pharaoh's heart, those same ten turned the heart of Israel to Him. The same Lord and Savior that turns our hearts, turns other hearts away. The same rain that falls, causes some to be thankful, and others to curse or ignore etc. Romans 1:21

If it helps, I think all of us, equally see Pharaoh hardened and the Israelite turned and that God knew His actions would do these. "He causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust." It is therefore, God's good actions, always, that turn the heart or soften it. In Calvinism, man's heart 'should' turn from Him because of the lack of God, therein (or we'd be in God's grace already). The same question you ask, we ask too, but we are simply seeing that nobody gets away from it: the implicating questions are ever there, whether one is a Calvinist, Arminian, Open Theist, or other. As far as I've ever been able to tell, barring Process Theology, God acts and the outcome of saving some is the same, and never, under any system, satisfactorily address to where one is no longer troubled. We simply do not know. The Calvinist does rely on Romans 9, in the sense that we don't really have a 'right to know' being that all men are God's and His alone. I do rest in the fact that He loves all and is not willing that any should perish. If it isn't "Calvinistic" at that point in sentiment, it isn't in Arminian or Open Theism either.

Allow me to reword it, because it is foundational to answering your question:

Would you agree that logic would follow that if God simply decided, before the foundation of the earth, whom He would regenerate, and would not regenerate, arbitrarily, that it would make Him inherently unjust, and therefore not worthy of our worship?

As with above, not if the act and the Actor are inherently good. That is, if rain, that is 'supposed' to soften, hardens instead, then the 'intent' is for good, albeit in this case, it is known that it won't do that. The problem, as I see it, is in the questioner's mind at that point. They are assuming 'rain for this person is bad' because the result is damnation. That is true, but the thing that caused it isn't the 'good thing' in and of itself. You and I both know that our Lord Jesus Christ is nothing but good, yet scripture says men will stumble because of Him (that's why I say it is neither Calvinist nor any other theology that adheres to this, we all do).



None deserve His mercy or His grace.

But my question is challenging exactly what you are proposing God did.
I've always wrestled with this, even under Arminian thought. Becoming a Calvinist didn't really 'mean' anything or touch the concern you bring. I always had it and even prior to Calvinism embrace, there was no theology that made it go away. Rather, the scriptures that God is good and all that He does is good, as applied to 'hardening Pharaoh's heart (Romans 9) or our Lord and Savior causing men to stumble, was instrumental in helping me get beyond this. It isn't that God 'desires' Jesus to cause men to stumble. This isn't the 'desire.' It is, however the known result. Even in Open Theism, God knows the numbers and reality. It just doesn't make a difference, at this point, whether He does or doesn't know their names. The problem, for me, is/was the same. He is good. Some are saved by His good.

-Lon
 

bibleverse2

New member
We have to obey our Government. The scriptures tell us that.

Amen (Romans 13:1-2).

But note that Romans 13:1-2, like 1 Peter 2:13-14, Titus 3:1, Hebrews 13:17, and Matthew 18:17, applies to every case where human rulers (whether secular or religious) are not commanding Christians to do something contrary to what God Himself commands (Acts 5:29, Daniel 3:18, Galatians 2:5,11-14).
 

bibleverse2

New member
So, how does God determine who He regenerates, and who He leaves alone?

While the Bible does not say by what criteria God determined which individuals to create as elect vessels of His mercy and which individuals to create as nonelect vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:21-23), God's criteria were not based on any differences between individual people (Romans 3:9-12); just as, for example, King David's criteria for determining which Moabites to kill and which to keep alive were not based on any differences between the individual people (2 Samuel 8:2); and just as a potter's criteria for determining which part of a lump of clay to make a vessel unto honor and which part of that same lump of clay to make another vessel unto dishonor are not based on any differences between the two parts of that same lump of clay (Romans 9:21).

Also, every Christian can know that he or she is elect (chosen) because Christian faith comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2). Nonelect individuals can never believe in Jesus Christ, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), not because they are any worse than elect individuals (Romans 3:9-12), but simply because God did not choose to show them His mercy (Romans 9:15-22). Elect individuals are shown God's mercy and grace not based on any prior good works on their part (Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-9), but because God chose (elected) them before they had done anything at all (Romans 9:11-24), and even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13).
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
And I am claiming that no fallen sinner WANTS to repent or be forgiven. It is not in any of us.

God must FIRST regenerate and change our hearts and wills through the gifts of faith and repentance to realize our justification in His sight.

God is the cause. Our faith and repentance is the effect.

Never vice-versa.

Sinners are never the cause of being forgiven. All mercy, grace, and legal pardon resides with the Judge Eternal.
Except that it is the sinner who repents and is forgiven.
 

betsy123

New member
How can we pray for anyone at all, except the believer's forgiveness and healing?

For non-believers? Pray that they seek Christ.
That's the first step to salvation for a non-believer, right?

So many non-believers had found Jesus Christ! How did that happen?
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
For non-believers? Pray that they seek Christ.
That's the first step to salvation for a non-believer, right?

So many non-believers had found Jesus Christ! How did that happen?

If it was people praying for them, good. I am asking about Biblical instruction, if it is there to do so.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Except that it is the sinner who repents and is forgiven.

God is the causal agent in the act of repentance, as much as He is the sole source and giver of faith.

All of salvation comes from Him, including forgiveness (Justification).

Believers are the objects of salvation; never the instigators. Lest we should boast . . .
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
God is the causal agent in the act of repentance, as much as He is the sole source and giver of faith.

All of salvation comes from Him, including forgiveness (Justification).

Believers are the objects of salvation; never the instigators. Lest we should boast . . .

I understand all that, but in God's grace it is not God repenting it is the sinner.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
I understand all that, but in God's grace it is not God repenting it is the sinner.

Agreed, but the question is: Who gets the glory?

(There are some who make careers out of frequent repenting and then boast about their works of righteousness.)
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Agreed, but the question is: Who gets the glory?

(There are some who make careers out of frequent repenting and then boast about their works of righteousness.)

I should not boast in repenting, but it is better to repent of sin than not to. Yes, God gets the glory.
 
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