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Sola Scriptura gets shut down at the Council of Trent - via the Augsburg Confession

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  • ECT: Sola Scriptura gets shut down at the Council of Trent - via the Augsburg Confession

    I heard recently that there was a strong movement at the Council of Trent in favor of having the Catholic church adopt the standard of sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice. The council was adopting some counter-reformation initiatives to remove questionable practices within the RCC and hopefully stop the steady flow of defections from the RCC over to the Protesting Catholics that were following men like Martin Luther.

    It was argued that if the RCC adopted sola-scriptura as their standard the Protestant movement would have very little to go on - and it would begin to fizzle out. A letter was sent to the Pope that they were very close to adopting the standard of sola scriptura.

    But then the Archbishop of Reggio made a speech in which he proved that the Protestants following Luther and adopting the Augsburg Confession - had in fact confessed that tradition was of a higher authority than scripture.

    http://biblelight.net/bssb-1443-1444.htm

    So if the protestants themselves confessed to not fully supporting sola-scriptura then the Catholics would not need to do it at all.

    so in a way it was protestants that helped to block the adoption of sola scriptura by the RCC.

    Who woulda-thought?

  • #2
    that's baloney!
    So, what?

    believe it!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by BobRyan View Post
      I heard recently that there was a strong movement at the Council of Trent in favor of having the Catholic church adopt the standard of sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice. The council was adopting some counter-reformation initiatives to remove questionable practices within the RCC and hopefully stop the steady flow of defections from the RCC over to the Protesting Catholics that were following men like Martin Luther.

      It was argued that if the RCC adopted sola-scriptura as their standard the Protestant movement would have very little to go on - and it would begin to fizzle out. A letter was sent to the Pope that they were very close to adopting the standard of sola scriptura.

      But then the Archbishop of Reggio made a speech in which he proved that the Protestants following Luther and adopting the Augsburg Confession - had in fact confessed that tradition was of a higher authority than scripture.

      http://biblelight.net/bssb-1443-1444.htm

      So if the protestants themselves confessed to not fully supporting sola-scriptura then the Catholics would not need to do it at all.

      so in a way it was protestants that helped to block the adoption of sola scriptura by the RCC.

      Who woulda-thought?
      That is a crazy website. You should not listen to him, he is a 666er. Instead go to this website and listen to them.

      http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...sm/ccc_toc.htm

      If you need a random Text from the 'Catechism' to take a taste, here is Test 272, just a random one, to give you a whiff of Catholicism, if you would want to, just take a whiff of Catholicism.

      The text of Text 272 follows.*

      "Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil. But in the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil. Christ crucified is thus "the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men" (1Co1:24-25KJV). It is in Christ's Resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth "the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe" (Eph1:19-22)."

      * -I substituted the KJV text for the Catholic English version actually quoted in the English 'Catechism.'
      "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

      @Nee_Nihilo

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Idolater View Post
        That is a crazy website. You should not listen to him, he is a 666er. Instead go to this website and listen to them.

        http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...sm/ccc_toc.htm
        I am always amazed that Catholics think that non-Catholics only trust Catholic sources as if "That is a given".

        What is up with that?

        ------==============================

        Turns out - that after the reformation was getting started - there was a Council of Trent meeting where the RCC tried to shore up the holes in the leaky Catholic confederation - so the ship could right-itself and prevent more hemorrhaging. They made some good changes but one of the interesting exchanges at that council was one where a majority vote was going in a direction that favored sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and not giving tradition equal or greater weight than the Bible.


        The argument was that the protesting Catholics probably had this right - and the church could put a stop to the protest - simply by adopting a sola scriptura model instead of an almost sola-tradition one that was currently driving the ship into left field.


        They apparently were about to "Do the deal" in favor of "sola scriptura" when the archbishop of Reggio reminded them that the protesting Catholics themselves had already rejected "Sola Scriptura" in practice. His proof was that the Protestants in their Augsburg Confession bring up the subject of the RCC (the confession calls them "Romanists") changing one of the Ten Commandments solely based on tradition -- no matter what the Bible said to the contrary. It was pointed out that the Augsburg Confession freely admitted that to instance of tossing out the Bible in favor of "tradition-instead" and yet chose to side with tradition and not the Bible. It was tantamount to a confession by Protestants that sola scriptura was not to be fully adopted not even by the protesting Catholics.


        [URL unfurl="true"]http://biblelight.net/bssb-1443-1444.htm[/URL]


        On that point - the entire council of Trent abandoned the sola scriptura proposal and in fact united against it.

        ===========

        I am talking about historic facts - public documents


        Augsburg Confession Article 28 - as pointed out by Archbishop of Reggio -


        Part 2 - The Bishop’s Power to Introduce New Ceremonies


        Lines 30-33: The Romanist arguments concerning the right of bishops to introduce new ceremonies and regulations. As evidence that bishops do have such power the Romanist offer the matter of the Sabbath, which they say, the church changed from Saturday to Sunday.


        The Faith Explained - (Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II)

        http://www.bible-sabbath.com 3


        (from "The Faith Explained" page 243


        "we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident

        ...

        The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

        ..

        nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church



        =============== Archbiship Reggio's argument =================


        , G.E. Fifield, D.D., in his incomparable tract, Origin of Sunday as a Christian (?) Festival (Published by American Sabbath Tract Society, Seventh Day Baptist Church). To quote Dr. Fifield: "At the council of Trent, called by the Roman Church to deal with questions arising out of the reformation, it was at first an apparent possibility that the Council would declare in favor of the reformed doctrines instead of against them, so profound was the impression made thus far by the teachings of Luther and other reformers."The Pope’s legate actually wrote to him that there was "strong tendency to set aside tradition altogether, and to make the Scriptures the sole standard of appeal."


        The question was debated day by day, until it was fairly brought to a standstill. Finally the Archbishop of Reggio turned the Council against the Reformation by the following argument:


        "The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only: they profess to hold the Scriptures alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestant’s claim that they stand upon the written word alone is not true."


        Their profession of holding the Scriptures alone as the standard of faith is false. Proof: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they truly hold the Scriptures alone as the standard, they would be observing the seventh day as it is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath as enjoined in the written word, but they have adopted, and do practice, the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the (Catholic) Church."Consequently, the claim of Scripture alone as the standard fails and the doctrine of ‘Scripture and tradition as essential’ is fully established., the Protestants themselves being judges.


        "See the Proceedings of the Council of Trent, Augsburg confession, and Encyclopedia Britannica, article "Trent, Council of." At this argument, the party that had stood for the Scripture alone surrendered, and the Council at once unanimously condemned Protestantism, and the whole Reformation. It at once proceeded to enact stringent decrees to arrest its progress


        ============================== added explanation per post below ===============

        Comment


        • #5
          I wonder what "traditions" that the church of Romes cites to support their teaching of the Assumption of Mary.

          Rome now calls Mary the "Queen of Heaven" and here is what is said about her in the Bible:

          "The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger"
          (Jer.7:18).

          Comment


          • #6
            tl ; dr
            Originally posted by BobRyan View Post
            I am always amazed that Catholics think that non-Catholics only trust Catholic sources as if "That is a given".

            What is up with that?

            ------==============================

            Turns out - that after the reformation was getting started - there was a Council of Trent meeting where the RCC tried to shore up the holes in the leaky Catholic confederation - so the ship could right-itself and prevent more hemorrhaging. They made some good changes but one of the interesting exchanges at that council was one where a majority vote was going in a direction that favored sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and not giving tradition equal or greater weight than the Bible.


            The argument was that the protesting Catholics probably had this right - and the church could put a stop to the protest - simply by adopting a sola scriptura model instead of an almost sola-tradition one that was currently driving the ship into left field.


            They apparently were about to "Do the deal" in favor of "sola scriptura" when the archbishop of Reggio reminded them that the protesting Catholics themselves had already rejected "Sola Scriptura" in practice. His proof was that the Protestants in their Augsburg Confession bring up the subject of the RCC (the confession calls them "Romanists") changing one of the Ten Commandments solely based on tradition -- no matter what the Bible said to the contrary. It was pointed out that the Augsburg Confession freely admitted that to instance of tossing out the Bible in favor of "tradition-instead" and yet chose to side with tradition and not the Bible. It was tantamount to a confession by Protestants that sola scriptura was not to be fully adopted not even by the protesting Catholics.


            [URL unfurl="true"]http://biblelight.net/bssb-1443-1444.htm[/URL]


            On that point - the entire council of Trent abandoned the sola scriptura proposal and in fact united against it.

            ===========

            I am talking about historic facts - public documents


            Augsburg Confession Article 28 - as pointed out by Archbishop of Reggio -


            Part 2 - The Bishop’s Power to Introduce New Ceremonies


            Lines 30-33: The Romanist arguments concerning the right of bishops to introduce new ceremonies and regulations. As evidence that bishops do have such power the Romanist offer the matter of the Sabbath, which they say, the church changed from Saturday to Sunday.


            The Faith Explained - (Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II)

            http://www.bible-sabbath.com 3


            (from "The Faith Explained" page 243


            "we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident

            ...

            The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

            ..

            nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church



            =============== Archbiship Reggio's argument =================


            , G.E. Fifield, D.D., in his incomparable tract, Origin of Sunday as a Christian (?) Festival (Published by American Sabbath Tract Society, Seventh Day Baptist Church). To quote Dr. Fifield: "At the council of Trent, called by the Roman Church to deal with questions arising out of the reformation, it was at first an apparent possibility that the Council would declare in favor of the reformed doctrines instead of against them, so profound was the impression made thus far by the teachings of Luther and other reformers."The Pope’s legate actually wrote to him that there was "strong tendency to set aside tradition altogether, and to make the Scriptures the sole standard of appeal."


            The question was debated day by day, until it was fairly brought to a standstill. Finally the Archbishop of Reggio turned the Council against the Reformation by the following argument:


            "The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only: they profess to hold the Scriptures alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestant’s claim that they stand upon the written word alone is not true."


            Their profession of holding the Scriptures alone as the standard of faith is false. Proof: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they truly hold the Scriptures alone as the standard, they would be observing the seventh day as it is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath as enjoined in the written word, but they have adopted, and do practice, the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the (Catholic) Church."Consequently, the claim of Scripture alone as the standard fails and the doctrine of ‘Scripture and tradition as essential’ is fully established., the Protestants themselves being judges.


            "See the Proceedings of the Council of Trent, Augsburg confession, and Encyclopedia Britannica, article "Trent, Council of." At this argument, the party that had stood for the Scripture alone surrendered, and the Council at once unanimously condemned Protestantism, and the whole Reformation. It at once proceeded to enact stringent decrees to arrest its progress


            ============================== added explanation per post below ===============
            tl ; dr

            Can you make your point(s) more succinctly.
            "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

            @Nee_Nihilo

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
              I wonder what "traditions" that the church of Romes cites to support their teaching of the Assumption of Mary.

              Rome now calls Mary the "Queen of Heaven" and here is what is said about her in the Bible:

              "The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger"
              (Jer.7:18).
              Well, its not just that one, but many....Just a few pagan practices in the Roman Catholic Church:
              • The rituals and practices of a priesthood to intercede and rule over the laity
              • A infallible vicar of Christ
              • Rote prayer
              • The Rosary (rote prayer to Mary for intercession)
              • Scapulars
              • Indulgences
              • Worship of Mary (in reality this pagan goddess with child pre-existed Mary and was known as the Queen of Heaven)
              • Holy Rituals
              • Sacraments
              • Holy water
              • The mission, practices, and methods of the Jesuits
              • Eucharistic Christ (The bread and wine becoming the body and blood of Christ whenever conjured up by a priest)
              While the Church claims it never gave the 'Saints' to the people to worship or pray to, the pagan masses it drew made no such fine distinctions, and they came to regard the idols of the Saints themselves as present helps in trouble and addressed their prayers directly to them. They were more interested in the power of the dead of pagan beliefs now set up as 'Saints' in the church, to help them in their troubles as they had done before as pagans. A good example of the closeness of the resemblance of the specialization of function of different Saints to that of pagan spirits is found in the published lists of Saints used by some Christians.

              Here are some of the examples: San Serapio was used to appealed to in case of stomach-ache; Santa Polonia for tooth-ache; San Jose, San Juan Bautista and Santa Catalina for headache; San Bernardo and San Cirilo for indigestion; San Luis for cholera; San Francisco for colic; San Ignacio and Santa Lutgarda for childbirth; Santa Balsania for scrofula; San Felix for ulcers; Santa Agueda for nursing mothers; San Babilas for burns; San Gorge for an infected cut; Santa Quiteria for dog's bite; San Ciriaco for diseases of the ear; Santa Lucia for the eyes; San Pedro for fever; and Santa Rita for the impossible and on and on. Some of the early Christians themselves protested against the cult of the Saints: for example, Vigilantius and Faustus in the fifth century. But on the other side were such great apologists as Augustine, Ambrose, Chrysostom, and Basil, who though claiming that God alone was worshipped, expressed full belief in the efficacy of the intercession of the Saints.

              Comment

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