Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

[patrick jane]

When the Bible speaks of a face in terms of the earth, does that imply "flatness" or flattish? Here's the KJV Bible definition of the word face.


http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/face.html
KJV Dictionary Definition: face

face

FACE, n. L., to make.
1. In a general sense, the surface of a thing, or the side which presents itself to the view of a spectator; as the face of the earth; the face of the waters.
2. A part of the surface of a thing; or the plane surface of a solid. Thus, a cube or die has six faces an octahedron has eight faces.
3. The surface of the fore part of an animals head, particularly of the human head; the visage.
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread. Genesis 3.
Joseph bowed himself with his face to the earth. Genesis 48.
4. Countenance; cast of features; look; air of the face.
We set the best face on it we could.
5. The front of a thing; the forepart; the flat surface that presents itself first to view; as the face of a house. Ezekiel 41.
6. Visible state; appearance.
This would produce a new face of things in Europe.
7. Appearance; look.
Nor heaven, nor sea, their former face retained.
His dialogue has the face of probability.
8. State of confrontation. The witnesses were presented face to face.
9. Confidence; boldness; impudence; a bold front.
He has the face to charge others with false citations.
10. Presence; sight; as in the phrases, before the face, in the face, to the face, from the face.
11. The person.
I had not thought to see thy face. Genesis 48.
12. In scripture, face is used for anger or favor.


Genesis 6:1 KJV - And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose
My words here: Was geometry around 6000 years ago? It wasn't, but God knows all maths. A "Face" in geometry refers to a plane also.

in solid geometry, a face is a flat (planar) surface that forms part of the boundary of a solid object; a three-dimensional solid bounded exclusively by flat faces is a polyhedron.

Face (geometry) - Wikipedia

 

[Tambora]

You tell me. That's why I am asking.

If you don't have any knowledge of how GOD describes it to us, then you should read scripture to see what all He says before commenting to me in this thread.
Because I am only interested in what your comments are about what GOD says about it.
So catch up and come on back if you like.

 

[Derf]

Scripture ain't proof enough for ya?

I don't understand your question. Scripture doesn't say the earth is flat, nor what kinds of effects would happen if the sun were to stop in a flat earth model (or a globe earth model, for that matter). The effects are things we presume would happen based with our model. For a globe earth, we make some assumptions about what would have to happen for the sun to stand still for the people in Joshua's army. One option, that I've outlined a bit, is for the earth to stop. Another would be for the sun and moon to start moving around the earth at the same speed as earth's rotation. We can also assume that whatever effects there are are completely mitigated by God's power, in which case neither model would be favored by scripture over the other.

If there are effects with the globe model, the effects would be enormous, but the reason we know that is because the globe model is pretty well established with all the intertwining dependencies.

We don't know, or at least I don't, what kind of dependencies exist for any flat earth model. To say there are none is naive, at best, and burying heads in the sand at worst. They may not be as grave as the globe earth effects, but surely there are some--such as longer colder nights where it was night and winter--which we know exist while we are in the midst of a summer day. PJ mentioned some of these possibilities:

Common sense says it would have absolutely no effect on anything major. Think if the sun and moon were gone for even an entire 24 hour period it would only be dark for 24 hours. There would be no tides or current, let's say and temperature changes. A little more magical gravity? Perhaps, but off the top of my head I can't think of anything too bad that would happen if the sun and moon stood still in the firmament. But like I said, in your universe God would have had to stop at least one more thing, the earth. And perhaps the whole "universe".

Common sense needs to not stop at the first and second thought, but continue to the extremes of the conditions. What is the firmament? Does it move? What is it made of. Does the Sun pass through it, or does it move with the sun? If the stars are in the firmament and they move, but it doesn't, is that a different problem than the sun moving, or the same. If the firmament is a material thing, how easy is it to stop it, assuming it needs to be stopped. If it stops, does something bad happen to birds (since birds fly in the firmament the stars were set in). (Just curious: would something bad happen to airplanes if God stopped the sun today?)

Ps 8:3 says: When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

Now we have a scripture that says the stars and moon are fixed, yet we see them move. Maybe they are set in place in the firmament, which rotates. But we don't usually think of something that is "firm" as rotating/moving, do we? If we do, then when scriptures say the earth is fixed (like Ps 96:10) maybe they don't mean fixed in the particular way you are thinking.

Job 38:31: "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, Or loose the cords of Orion?"

Now we see that some stars are bound together, while others aren't. So the idea of a rotating medium in which the stars are fixed doesn't work. Also, this is God telling Job that he CAN'T do those things in the form of a rhetorical question. But if the firmament is something we can reach, maybe it's something we can alter.

 

[WizardofOz]

If you don't have any knowledge of how GOD describes it to us, then you should read scripture to see what all He says before commenting to me in this thread.

Rather than you just simply plainly saying what you believe?

Do you believe that the earth is flat?

Because I am only interested in what your comments are about what GOD says about it.

And here I was only interested in what your belief is. I guess we're hiding the light behind a bush today.

So catch up and come on back if you like.

You believe it is something like the above?

 

[Lon]

We will disagree on “bias.”

I can see yours.

If I do have a bias, it is against turning people away from the gospel with unreasonable interpretations that require people to deny the evidence God has given us in creation.

Excellent. You've said it. "Evidence." I've a LOT more patience with a flat-earther for one reason: He/she is questioning everything else BUT God. You? Imho, the opposite. I realize it is because you don't believe these scriptures are 'from' God, but there you go. You are literally and unequivocally, a man that has become the sole-charge of what is and isn't going to be truth. Why is my friend Patrick Jane in better shape? Because, at the heart and center of his worldview, is a desire to know God first, thus willing (willing) to question all but Him.

The end result is 'evidence' vs. pedantic truth. I know, per fact, you don't know your Bible as well as I do and likely not as well as Patrick Jane either. It SHOWS.

 

[patrick jane]

Rather than you just simply plainly saying what you believe?

Do you believe that the earth is flat?



And here I was only interested in what your belief is. I guess we're hiding the light behind a bush today.

You believe it is something like the above?

Did you see my post where I said I'm not 100% on an enclosed flat earth and firmament. Tam isn't either. Do you want percentages or something?

 

[Tambora]

I don't understand your question. Scripture doesn't say the earth is flat,

What description does scripture give of the earth?

 

[WizardofOz]

Did you see my post where I said I'm not 100% on an enclosed flat earth and firmament. Tam isn't either. Do you want percentages or something?

At minimum, I was hoping she could answer for herself. :idunno:

 

[Right Divider]

Scripture:

Joshua 10:12-13 KJV
(12) Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
(13) And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
​

Is this possible for a spinning orbiting globe earth?
With all the data you have on how a spinning orbiting globe earth functions, what would happen to earth if the sun and moon stood still for a day?

With God, it can be done no matter what.

 

[Tambora]

I've a LOT more patience with a flat-earther for one reason: He/she is questioning everything else BUT God.

How dare you!

 

[patrick jane]

At minimum, I was hoping she could answer for herself. :idunno:

IMO, nobody can be 100% sure it's enclosed and flattish, at the same time I am not 100% sure we are on a flying spinning ball. Does that make sense? I can't speak for anyone else but I'm almost positive Tam is NOT 100% for an enclosed earth and firmament. I believe scripture. It can be interpreted in different ways.

 

[Tambora]

You believe it is something like the above?

Is that how GOD's word describes it?

 

[Right Divider]

Your elephant hurling is ridiculous. I have no doubt that you've never even looked at any of the tons of verses that you claim prove a flat earth. Every time that I look at them I can see that they do NOT say that the earth is flat and in many cases prove just the opposite.

Deut 16:6 (AKJV/PCE)​

(16:6) But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt. ​

The sun does NOT go "down" in the flat earth model. It is always (supposedly) 3000 miles ABOVE the earth, circling at that same altitude all of the time.

 

[Tambora]

At minimum, I was hoping she could answer for herself. :idunno:

It's not my answers that I am seeking.
How does GOD's word describe the earth?

 

[patrick jane]

Your elephant hurling is ridiculous. I have no doubt that you've never even looked at any of the tons of verses that you claim prove a flat earth. Every time that I look at them I can see that they do NOT say that the earth is flat and in many cases prove just the opposite.

Deut 16:6 (AKJV/PCE)​

(16:6) But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt. ​

The sun does NOT go "down" in the flat earth model. It is always (supposedly) 3000 miles ABOVE the earth, circling at that same altitude all of the time.

Yeah, when I started this thread I was in the midst of both flat earth threads and posted that garbage. I changed the OP and set new guidelines. Please read it when you can.

 

[patrick jane]

When the Bible speaks of a face in terms of the earth, does that imply "flatness" or flattish? Here's the KJV Bible definition of the word face.


http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/face.html
KJV Dictionary Definition: face

face

FACE, n. L., to make.
1. In a general sense, the surface of a thing, or the side which presents itself to the view of a spectator; as the face of the earth; the face of the waters.
2. A part of the surface of a thing; or the plane surface of a solid. Thus, a cube or die has six faces an octahedron has eight faces.
3. The surface of the fore part of an animals head, particularly of the human head; the visage.
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread. Genesis 3.
Joseph bowed himself with his face to the earth. Genesis 48.
4. Countenance; cast of features; look; air of the face.
We set the best face on it we could.
5. The front of a thing; the forepart; the flat surface that presents itself first to view; as the face of a house. Ezekiel 41.
6. Visible state; appearance.
This would produce a new face of things in Europe.
7. Appearance; look.
Nor heaven, nor sea, their former face retained.
His dialogue has the face of probability.
8. State of confrontation. The witnesses were presented face to face.
9. Confidence; boldness; impudence; a bold front.
He has the face to charge others with false citations.
10. Presence; sight; as in the phrases, before the face, in the face, to the face, from the face.
11. The person.
I had not thought to see thy face. Genesis 48.
12. In scripture, face is used for anger or favor.


Genesis 6:1 KJV - And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose
My words here: Was geometry around 6000 years ago? It wasn't, but God knows all maths. A "Face" in geometry refers to a plane also.

in solid geometry, a face is a flat (planar) surface that forms part of the boundary of a solid object; a three-dimensional solid bounded exclusively by flat faces is a polyhedron.

Face (geometry) - Wikipedia

The OP has changed with new guidelines, please view it before continuing unless you already have. Also, the previous page, I think, Tam gave a summary of it. This is where I'm coming from. I agree with the speaker in that video - 13 minutes

 

[Right Divider]

Then a flat earth is not outside of GOD's power.

No, God could have made it in the shape of a cucumber if He wanted to.

The sun and moon stop.
It doesn't say anything else in the universe stopped.

The argument from silence is a logical fallacy.

I'm not so sure any scientist would say that the earth kept moving along as normal while that was happening with no repercussions.

Once again, God can do anything... right?

The sun stopped.
If the earth was a spinning ball, then stopping the sun would have made the day shorter not longer.
But if the earth was fixed and flat (ya know, like scripture describes it), the story fits like a glove and the day would indeed be longer in that area.

There is nothing wrong with speaking of the sun moving relative to the earth. It's simply talking from the perspective of a person on the earth's point of view.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Ps 8:3 says: When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

Now we have a scripture that says the stars and moon are fixed, yet we see them move. Maybe they are set in place in the firmament, which rotates. But we don't usually think of something that is "firm" as rotating/moving, do we? If we do, then when scriptures say the earth is fixed (like Ps 96:10) maybe they don't mean fixed in the particular way you are thinking.

The words is ordained.

But even if you want to be adamant about place, a place can also be a route or course...

Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

 

[Right Divider]

2Sam 11:11 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:11) And Uriah said unto David, The ark, and Israel, and Judah, abide in tents; and my lord Joab, and the servants of my lord, are encamped in the open fields; shall I then go into mine house, to eat and to drink, and to lie with my wife? [as] thou livest, and [as] thy soul liveth, I will not do this thing.
​

Next question?

PJ. Just once go check things out before you post stupid propaganda.

P.S. From now on I must call you a "flatt erther" :french:

 

[Right Divider]

Repeating mindless propaganda.