Interplanner
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When the expression 'anothen' (from above) was coined for NT use, it was Jesus speaking to Nicodemus about the Judaism he grew up in. Most of the NT is speaking to the Judaism that it was born into. That should make expressions like '...and have life more abundantly' look slightly different from using the expression about today's mass society or poverty contexts.
Judaism was stuck in literalism in many ways, especially about the law. Many of Nic's responses are a pretty sad indicator of such thinking. But a person in Judaism did need to be born all over/from above.
We learn later (Galatians and Hebrews being written later at least than the source material for John) that there is a Jerusalem above. It is also contrasted to the existing city, and not surprisingly, the existing one/below is in slavery with its children. In Galatians that meant it had not believed the Gospel and did not have the freedom of the Gospel. Each one 'stands for' each of the covenants that matter at this point: old and new.
The Isaiah 54 quote shows again that the Isaiah passage is not about Israel as such but that people who have faith are the children of the city above.
The children born the ordinary way persecute the children born of the Spirit, Jew or Gentile.
In Hebrews we know that the angel-delivered message, the priesthood and the covenant of Judaism all give way to the Christ/ian message that is now here. Likewise the cities. Ch. 11 goes retroactive, too, and says that even Abraham was not 'there' when he was in the promised land, because he was really seeking another city. 11:14+ must be handled delicately; it means Abraham was not thinking of Judea nor of returning to Persia; indeed, of no place on earth. There was to be a heavenly one, and it wasn't to be on this earth.
Vs 39 says none of these people (even David) recieved what had been promised. Because it is actually Christ's sacrifice that was being waited for.
Those who are in Christ (relying on and savoring his sacrifice for them) have come to the Mt Zion, the heavenly city, the fellowship of the cloud of witnesses, to all the believers of the past, and of course to Christ. This is not on earth, yet it is present tense. Those who have faith enjoy it.
Having said that in 24, he says that everything on this earth will be shaken (demolished, destroyed) but the kingdom in Christ will not. the universe will be shaken on the day of judgement. Then the NHNE will be made and it does not have exactly the same kind of corporeality. For ex., the Lamb is the temple.
Finally in 13:13 a nearly snide remark is made about Judaism and its sacrifice system, telling believers to get outside the (existing) city and temple, just like Christ's own death took place outside. Why? The city. We aren't expecting a city here. But one that is to come, that is currently above and enjoyed by faith.
The city he loves is his church and cloud from ch 12. In the Rev 20, it is violated briefly all over the world by the allowance God gives to Satan, but then everything is destroyed, or becomes a punishing lake of fire, while believers are elsewhere with God and Christ the Temple in the NHNE. In this sense, the city finally 'comes down'.
Needless to say, this whole sketch is entirely different from an episode of a city in Judea with Judaism up and running again. There is no such picture in the NT. It is all about Christ and in Christ.
Judaism was stuck in literalism in many ways, especially about the law. Many of Nic's responses are a pretty sad indicator of such thinking. But a person in Judaism did need to be born all over/from above.
We learn later (Galatians and Hebrews being written later at least than the source material for John) that there is a Jerusalem above. It is also contrasted to the existing city, and not surprisingly, the existing one/below is in slavery with its children. In Galatians that meant it had not believed the Gospel and did not have the freedom of the Gospel. Each one 'stands for' each of the covenants that matter at this point: old and new.
The Isaiah 54 quote shows again that the Isaiah passage is not about Israel as such but that people who have faith are the children of the city above.
The children born the ordinary way persecute the children born of the Spirit, Jew or Gentile.
In Hebrews we know that the angel-delivered message, the priesthood and the covenant of Judaism all give way to the Christ/ian message that is now here. Likewise the cities. Ch. 11 goes retroactive, too, and says that even Abraham was not 'there' when he was in the promised land, because he was really seeking another city. 11:14+ must be handled delicately; it means Abraham was not thinking of Judea nor of returning to Persia; indeed, of no place on earth. There was to be a heavenly one, and it wasn't to be on this earth.
Vs 39 says none of these people (even David) recieved what had been promised. Because it is actually Christ's sacrifice that was being waited for.
Those who are in Christ (relying on and savoring his sacrifice for them) have come to the Mt Zion, the heavenly city, the fellowship of the cloud of witnesses, to all the believers of the past, and of course to Christ. This is not on earth, yet it is present tense. Those who have faith enjoy it.
Having said that in 24, he says that everything on this earth will be shaken (demolished, destroyed) but the kingdom in Christ will not. the universe will be shaken on the day of judgement. Then the NHNE will be made and it does not have exactly the same kind of corporeality. For ex., the Lamb is the temple.
Finally in 13:13 a nearly snide remark is made about Judaism and its sacrifice system, telling believers to get outside the (existing) city and temple, just like Christ's own death took place outside. Why? The city. We aren't expecting a city here. But one that is to come, that is currently above and enjoyed by faith.
The city he loves is his church and cloud from ch 12. In the Rev 20, it is violated briefly all over the world by the allowance God gives to Satan, but then everything is destroyed, or becomes a punishing lake of fire, while believers are elsewhere with God and Christ the Temple in the NHNE. In this sense, the city finally 'comes down'.
Needless to say, this whole sketch is entirely different from an episode of a city in Judea with Judaism up and running again. There is no such picture in the NT. It is all about Christ and in Christ.
