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MAD error #433: That Israel was offered a restored state

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  • Originally posted by Interplanner View Post
    I assume you mean a theocracy with brick and stone real estate.
    Of course the kingdom which is to be restored will be a physical one, just like the kingdom which existed during Solomon's time. Here is the promise which the Lord made to David:
    "I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever...And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever" (2 Sam.7:12-13).

    Since the throne and the kingdom were both "earthly" in nature then we can know that God established the earthly throne and the earthly kingdom FOR EVER. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:

    "I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David"
    (Ps.89:3,33-35).

    So unless you want to argue that the Lord altered His promise to David then you must admit that an earthly kingdom will be restored to Israel.

    Comment


    • MAD error #433: That Israel was offered a restored state

      Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
      Completely irrelevant. Jesus knows all things.
      If He knows all things why did He tell the apostles this: Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

      3 choices here:
      1. Jesus didn't know that Israel would reject Him/His apostles
      2. Jesus knew and wanted to deceive His Apostles
      3. The understanding that this was referencing a soon-coming kingdom and return of Jesus is a mis-understanding.

      I don't see another choice.


      Sent from my iPhone using TOL

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SimpleMan77 View Post
        If He knows all things why did He tell the apostles this: Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
        What's the problem here?

        Did they go to all the cities of Israel? No, they did not.
        Has the Son of Man returned? No, He has not.

        Originally posted by SimpleMan77 View Post
        3 choices here:
        1. Jesus didn't know that Israel would reject Him/His apostles
        2. Jesus knew and wanted to deceive His Apostles
        3. The understanding that this was referencing a soon-coming kingdom and return of Jesus is a mis-understanding.

        I don't see another choice.
        Your entire line of thinking is illogical and fallacious. That's why you have a hard time understanding things.
        All of my ancestors are human.
        Originally posted by Squeaky
        That explains why your an idiot.
        Originally posted by God's Truth
        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

        Comment


        • MAD error #433: That Israel was offered a restored state

          Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
          What's the problem here?

          Did they go to all the cities of Israel? No, they did not.
          Has the Son of Man returned? No, He has not.


          Your entire line of thinking is illogical and fallacious. That's why you have a hard time understanding things.
          So Jesus knew that the Jews would reject His kingdom, then that the apostles and other ministers would continue to preach to the Gentiles the Gospel of grace for 2,000+ years before He returned?

          So you're saying there was never a "plan" for anything different than exactly what happened? The Gentiles came in under grace exactly at the time God appointed?


          Sent from my iPhone using TOL

          Comment


          • Originally posted by SimpleMan77 View Post
            So Jesus knew that the Jews would reject His kingdom, then that the apostles and other ministers would continue to preach to the Gentiles the Gospel of grace for 2,000+ years before He returned?

            So you're saying there was never a "plan" for anything different than exactly what happened? The Gentiles came in under grace exactly at the time God appointed?
            I have NO idea where your trying to do with this. Your illogical and fallacious logic is impossible to follow.

            The earthly kingdom is something that God has been sending the message about for a very long time:

            Acts 3:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)
            (3:19) ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (3:20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

            The revelation of the mystery that God gave to Paul is something that was NOT made known before:

            Rom 16:25-26 (AKJV/PCE)
            (16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (16:26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

            It's just that simple.

            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.
            Last edited by Right Divider; November 22nd, 2016, 08:06 AM. Reason: know -> known, it -> it's
            All of my ancestors are human.
            Originally posted by Squeaky
            That explains why your an idiot.
            Originally posted by God's Truth
            Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
            Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
            (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

            1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
            (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

            Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
              I have NO idea where your trying to do with this. Your illogical and fallacious logic is impossible to follow.

              The earthly kingdom is something that God has been sending the message about for a very long time:

              Acts 3:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)
              (3:19) ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (3:20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

              The revelation of the mystery that God gave to Paul is something that was NOT made know before:

              Rom 16:25-26 (AKJV/PCE)
              (16:25) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (16:26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

              It just that simple.

              Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.
              I am trying to figure this whole MAD thing out. I think I understand the basics of it to be as follows, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

              1. In keeping with the promises God made to Israel, Jesus came as Messiah to fulfill them.
              2. His plan included using the nation of Israel to reach the world after his return to heaven. Reaching the world included the Gentiles becoming subject to the law of Moses.
              3. The apostles were unsuccessful at converting the nation of Israel, so God had to go to a back-up plan.
              4. Because Israel rejected God, He saved Paul and gave him a new revelation, which wasn't known to the original 12 apostles until Paul revealed it to them.
              5. The apostles and all those who started under the original plan were allowed to continue under that plan, but Paul's converts were given the gospel of grace.
              6. God's original plan was put on hold for now, but will someday be fulfilled with the natural Israelites inhabiting the land-promises that they were given.

              Are those the basics? I would really like to have a clear understanding of the basic doctrines that MADs agree on.


              Sent from my iPhone using TOL

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SimpleMan77 View Post
                I am trying to figure this whole MAD thing out. I think I understand the basics of it to be as follows, and please correct me if I'm wrong.

                1. In keeping with the promises God made to Israel, Jesus came as Messiah to fulfill them.
                2. His plan included using the nation of Israel to reach the world after his return to heaven. Reaching the world included the Gentiles becoming subject to the law of Moses.
                3. The apostles were unsuccessful at converting the nation of Israel, so God had to go to a back-up plan.
                4. Because Israel rejected God, He saved Paul and gave him a new revelation, which wasn't known to the original 12 apostles until Paul revealed it to them.
                5. The apostles and all those who started under the original plan were allowed to continue under that plan, but Paul's converts were given the gospel of grace.
                6. God's original plan was put on hold for now, but will someday be fulfilled with the natural Israelites inhabiting the land-promises that they were given.

                Are those the basics? I would really like to have a clear understanding of the basic doctrines that MADs agree on.
                Nope. It was NOT a "backup plan". It was the plan from the beginning.

                Regarding point 2: Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel, but in Revelation and Isaiah (and elsewhere) we can see that the Gentile nations will serve Israel and will be blessed too.

                Rev 21:24-25 (AKJV/PCE)
                (21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

                Isa 60:10-11 (AKJV/PCE)
                (60:10) And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. (60:11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought.

                This what the kingdom of God will look like when it does come.

                Regarding point 6: This aspect of God's plan is delayed per His knowledge and was not some sort of "surprise". The kingdom will be fulfilled, just like everything that God says. Both parts of His plan are the entire plan. So there is no "original plan" and a "backup plan". It was ALL the plan from the beginning.

                So it's mostly correct, expect for your mistaken notions of "original plan" and "backup plan".
                All of my ancestors are human.
                Originally posted by Squeaky
                That explains why your an idiot.
                Originally posted by God's Truth
                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SimpleMan77 View Post
                  .
                  God's original plan was put on hold for now, but will someday be fulfilled with the natural Israelites inhabiting the land-promises that they were given.
                  Here is the land promise given to David:
                  "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David...I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

                  "And move no more"! This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

                  "For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up"
                  (Jer.24:6).

                  "And not pluck them up"! The promise the Lord made to David at 2 Samuel 7:10 was not fulfilled in the first century so its fulfillment will happen after that. God also said that He would not "alter" the promises which He made to David:
                  "I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant...Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

                  The Israelites will be broght back to the land which the Lord gave Jacob and they will not be plucked out of that land. That is what the Lord promised David and He said that He would not alter that promise.

                  So unless you want to argue that the lord lied to David then you must admit that the land promise will be fulfilled.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                    Nope. It was NOT a "backup plan". It was the plan from the beginning.

                    Regarding point 2: Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel, but in Revelation and Isaiah (and elsewhere) we can see that the Gentile nations will serve Israel and will be blessed too.

                    Rev 21:24-25 (AKJV/PCE)
                    (21:24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (21:25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

                    Isa 60:10-11 (AKJV/PCE)
                    (60:10) And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. (60:11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought.

                    This what the kingdom of God will look like when it does come.

                    Regarding point 6: This aspect of God's plan is delayed per His knowledge and was not some sort of "surprise". The kingdom will be fulfilled, just like everything that God says. Both parts of His plan are the entire plan. So there is no "original plan" and a "backup plan". It was ALL the plan from the beginning.

                    So it's mostly correct, expect for your mistaken notions of "original plan" and "backup plan".


                    RD,
                    you don't know Ephesians, the one letter that was sent nearly everywhere Paul had been.

                    Jews and Gentiles are united IN CHRIST and there is no serving Israel as a state nonsense.

                    Badly done.
                    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Interplanner View Post
                      RD,
                      you don't know Ephesians, the one letter that was sent nearly everywhere Paul had been.

                      Jews and Gentiles are united IN CHRIST and there is no serving Israel as a state nonsense.

                      Badly done.
                      No, knucklehead; Ephesians is not the same issue.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Interplanner View Post
                        RD,
                        you don't know Ephesians, the one letter that was sent nearly everywhere Paul had been.

                        Jews and Gentiles are united IN CHRIST and there is no serving Israel as a state nonsense.

                        Badly done.
                        DB,

                        You are as dumb as they come and I'm tired of your ignorance.

                        You deny the Word of God with your man-made psycho-babble "other books about it" stupidity.
                        All of my ancestors are human.
                        Originally posted by Squeaky
                        That explains why your an idiot.
                        Originally posted by God's Truth
                        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                          DB,

                          You are as dumb as they come and I'm tired of your ignorance.

                          You deny the Word of God with your man-made psycho-babble "other books about it" stupidity.

                          As I said, you don't know Ephesians. You just called it an 'other book about it.'
                          All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

                          Comment


                          • As you can see from Eph 3, it is not the promise to the land of Israel that astonishes the whole universe about the dependability of God; it is the unified church with its disparate peoples. That shows to all principalities and powers that Christ reigns.
                            All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Interplanner View Post
                              As you can see from Eph 3, it is not the promise to the land of Israel that astonishes the whole universe about the dependability of God; it is the unified church with its disparate peoples. That shows to all principalities and powers that Christ reigns.
                              Go play in traffic with that mess.

                              Comment

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