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  • #91
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The difference is that the Gospel of the Circumcision committed to Peter was the New Covenant God was going to make with Israel and Israel alone, whereas the Gospel of the Uncircumcision was the mystery revealed to Paul first, who then preached it to the world, that mystery being that one is saved by grace through faith, and not of works, a dispensation of Grace, rather than Law.
    This insanity about different Gospels for different people has no place in real Christianity. It is the ranting of fringe groups that are not part of real Christianity.

    There is ONE GOOD NEWS, that Jesus came to take unto him the sin of the world. And the recipient of that news is THE WHOLE WORLD.

    Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

    One Bible, One Human Race, One God, One ospel, One Baptism, One Faith.

    Yeesh.

    Comment


    • #92
      Now, listen up about Merit.

      Originally posted by CatholicCrusader View Post

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Trump Gurl View Post
        This insanity
        Neither an appeal to ridicule nor to the stone will make your claim correct.

        about different Gospels for different people has no place in real Christianity.
        Saying it doesn't make it so, and in fact, it has been shown repeatedly over the years on this very forum that there ARE different gospels for different groups of people.

        It is the ranting of fringe groups that are not part of real Christianity.
        Keep in mind that you're posting on one of those "fringe groups's" forums, and that this is a MAINLINE Christian board.

        There is ONE GOOD NEWS,
        Well, no, there is MORE than just one.

        The GOSPEL OF the Kingdom.
        The GOSPEL OF the Circumcision.
        The GOSPEL OF the Uncircumcision.
        The GOSPEL OF Jesus Christ.

        In other words: Saying there is only one good news does not make it so, and is in fact false.

        that Jesus came to take unto him the sin of the world. And the recipient of that news is THE WHOLE WORLD.

        Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus"

        One Bible, One Human Race, One God, One ospel, One Baptism, One Faith.

        Yeesh.
        So, let's say for the sake of your argument (which is sorely lacking, by the way) that your position is true.

        Here is the question that arises:


        Why the need for Paul?

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by User Name View Post

          That is one gospel.
          Use your brain. The good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is not the same good news that the Lord Jesus died for our sins.

          If you cannot understand something that simple then you have no business on this forum.

          I will ask you again, Do you believe that faith alone results in salvation?

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Trump Gurl View Post

            This insanity about different Gospels for different people has no place in real Christianity.
            You know nothing about real Christianity.

            The "gospel" which was preached by the Twelve at Luke 9:6 cannot possibly be the same gospel that declares "Christ died for our sins" because when they preached that gospel they didn't even know that the Lord Jesus was going to die (Lk.18:33-34).

            Of course you don't answer Scriptures because your faith is built on what Rome teaches and not on the Scriptures themselves.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

              Use your brain. The good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is not the same good news that the Lord Jesus died for our sins.

              If you cannot understand something that simple then you have no business on this forum.
              Cool your head a bit.

              Are you saying that post-Ascension, Peter and Paul both taught the exact same gospel?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by User Name View Post

                Cool your head a bit.
                Why do you refuse to answer my question?:

                Do you believe that faith alone results in salvation?

                Are you ashamed of your beliefs? For what other reason would you refuse to answer?

                Originally posted by User Name View Post
                Are you saying that post-Ascension, Peter and Paul both taught the exact same gospel?
                I will answer that when and if you answer my question.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  Do you believe that faith alone results in salvation?
                  Yes.

                  Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                  I will answer that when and if you answer my question.
                  Ok, go ahead.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by User Name View Post
                    Ok, go ahead.
                    Paul himself preached two different gospels. One was based on what OT prophecies revealed:

                    "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead" (Ro.1:1-4).


                    When Paul preached in the synagogues he preached the following:

                    "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.....proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).


                    On the other hand, when Paul preached to the Gentiles the gospel he preached is described as being a "mystery" or something which had not been revealed in the OT:

                    "Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith" (Ro.16:25-26).


                    Here Paul speaks about that gospel:

                    "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" (1 Cor.2:7).

                    So the gospel which Paul preached in the synagogues was a gospel which had been revealed in the OT and the one which he preached to the Getiles had been kept secret.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                      Paul himself preached two different gospels
                      That is just a lie. Your lies are getting tedious.

                      Comment


                      • I don't see anybody have proven this wrong.


                        Originally posted by CatholicCrusader View Post
                        We Can Work It Out
                        By Tim Staples - source link

                        (Quoted with permission)

                        James 2:24 is remarkably clear: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Yet millions of Christians teach the opposite: They claim that we are "justified by faith alone"—saying good works are unnecessary for Christians in the process of justification.

                        This misconception is rooted in the misinterpretation of a few key texts, such as Romans 3:28: "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law." Romans 4:5 is another: "And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." On the surface, St. Paul seems to be saying works are not necessary for our justification or salvation in any sense, but that is not the case when we examine the context of these passages. Not only would this interpretation contradict the words of James 2, but it would also contradict Paul himself.

                        Work in Christ

                        Paul made very clear in Romans 2:6-8 that good works are necessary for attaining eternal life, at least for those capable of performing them: "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury."

                        So what about the fact that Paul also said we are "justified by faith apart from works of law?" He was writing to a church in Rome struggling with a very prominent first-century heretical sect known today as the "Judaizers." These heretics taught that belief in Christ and obedience to the New Covenant was not enough to be saved. A man also had to keep the Mosaic Law (which, according to Hebrews 7:11-12, has been superseded in Christ) and be circumcised in order to be saved (cf. Acts 15:1-2). Paul gave us one clue—among many—that he had this sect in mind when he wrote in Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal . . . " Paul told us in Colossians 2:11-12 that this true "circumcision of Christ" is baptism.

                        It is in this context that Paul says we are "justified by faith apart from works of law." He did not in any sense say that works are unnecessary. He specified works of law because these were the works without which the Judaizers were claiming one "cannot be saved."

                        Paul does not specifically say works of law in Romans 4:5, but if we read from Romans 3:28 to Romans 4:5 and beyond, the context makes it unmistakable: Paul was referring to circumcision in particular and the same "works of law" he was referring to in Romans 3:28. Romans 4:5-10 will suffice to make the point:
                        And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness . . . Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.



                        Paul used the example of the "Judaizers" to teach the truth about the nature of justification and works. The works that justify us—as we saw in Romans 2:6-11 and James 2:24—are works done in Christ. Indeed, in Romans 2:4, before Paul even begins to talk about the works we must do to be saved, he says, "Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance" (Douay-Rheims). It is only God’s goodness that leads us to repentance so that we can perform good works. How do we get "in Christ" according to Paul? Through baptism: "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death . . ." (Rom 6:3-4). It is only after we are in Christ and trusting in the power of his grace at work within us that we have the power to remain in him: "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God" (Rom 5:1-2).

                        Moreover, in Romans 6:16, Paul tells us that after baptism, obedience to Christ leads us to justification while sin will lead us to death (see also Romans 6:23): "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness" (Gk. eis dikaiosunen, unto justification).

                        Paul’s emphasis is not just on good works, but works done in and through the power of Christ. Thus, in Romans 8:1-14,Paul tells us in no uncertain terms that we must be in Christ in order to do works that please God.
                        There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus . . . who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit . . . and those who are in the flesh cannot please God . . . So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.



                        Remember that Paul is emphasizing our continuing in Christ, in his grace or "kindness" as he says in Romans 11:22. "Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off."

                        Work through Love

                        When Paul wrote his letter to the Galatians, he had these same "Judaizers" in mind:
                        Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh . . . Now I Paul say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness (Gk. dikaiosoune, justification). For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. (Gal 3:2-3, 5:2-6)



                        Evidently, some of the Galatians were giving in to the false teaching that commanded them to return to the Law of Moses for salvation. He warns them that returning to the old Law is to reject Christ. But he in no way even hints at any idea of a "justification by faith alone" that would deny the necessity of "faith working through love." Paul writes in the simplest of terms, in Galatians 5:19-21 and 6:7-9, that if Christians allow themselves to be dominated by their "flesh," or lower nature, they will not make it to heaven. While on the flip side, Christians will only reap the reward of eternal life if they continue to "sow to the Spirit" or perform good works:
                        Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God . . . Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (eternal death); but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.



                        Work out Salvation

                        Ephesians 2:8-9 declares: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast." This is another text commonly used to dismiss good works as necessary for salvation in the life of a Christian. However, once again, context is the key to understanding Paul. In verses 4-6, he says: "But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ . . . and raised us up with him . . ."

                        Context reveals that St. Paul was talking about the initial grace of salvation or justification by which we are raised from death unto life. The construction of the Greek text of Ephesians 2:8-9 makes clear that both grace and faith are entirely unmerited. Many Protestants are shocked to discover this is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches—and baptizes babies to prove it. How much more can the Church do to demonstrate this truth? What kind of works could a newborn baby have done to merit anything? However, once that baby grows up and reaches the age of accountability, he must begin to "work out [his] own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in [him], both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil 2:12-13). Or, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

                        Are we justified or saved by faith, according to Jesus? Certainly! But by faith alone that would exclude works in every sense? No way. In John 11:25, we read: "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live." That is faith. Yet, in Matthew 19:17-19, Jesus declared: ". . . If you would enter life, keep the commandments . . . You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself." That is works.

                        In Matthew 12:37, Jesus puts any thought of justification by faith alone to rest: ". . . for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
                        About Tim Staples:
                        http://www.catholic.com/profiles/tim-staples

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Trump Gurl View Post
                          That is just a lie. Your lies are getting tedious.
                          Your false accusations prove nothing!

                          If I am wrong then address the points which I made.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

                            Paul himself preached two different gospels. One was based on what OT prophecies revealed:

                            "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead" (Ro.1:1-4).



                            When Paul preached in the synagogues he preached the following:

                            "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.....proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).



                            On the other hand, when Paul preached to the Gentiles the gospel he preached is described as being a "mystery" or something which had not been revealed in the OT:

                            "Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith" (Ro.16:25-26).



                            Here Paul speaks about that gospel:

                            "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" (1 Cor.2:7).


                            So the gospel which Paul preached in the synagogues was a gospel which had been revealed in the OT and the one which he preached to the Getiles had been kept secret.
                            What?

                            Paul preached the same thing Jesus preached.

                            There is only one gospel.

                            Luke 2:32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel."

                            Acts 13:47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

                            Acts 26:23that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles."


                            Same one and only gospel mystery revealed.

                            Same gospel revealed in LUKE as IN ACTS.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

                              Paul himself preached two different gospels. One was based on what OT prophecies revealed...

                              On the other hand, when Paul preached to the Gentiles the gospel he preached is described as being a "mystery" or something which had not been revealed in the OT...

                              So the gospel which Paul preached in the synagogues was a gospel which had been revealed in the OT and the one which he preached to the Getiles had been kept secret.
                              Those are just differences in terms of presentation rather than differences in substance imho. The substance remains the same.

                              For example, did Paul preach the DBR? So did Peter, surely.

                              Comment


                              • Faith, Works and Abraham: What do Catholics Really Believe? Galatians 3:1-14

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