ECT Rightly Dividing

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
I will preach against TeTs wickedness but, will not respond to his
inane comments. I believe him to be a non-believer and an enemy
of God's Grace Message.
 

Danoh

New member
I don't.

Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 speak for themselves.

You have to throw the rules of grammar out the window to make them not mean what they say.

All Josephus does is confirm what the Lord Jesus Christ prophesied.

The Arch of Titus, which still stands today in Rome, confirms the prophecies also.

There is a difference between God removing His hand and allowing what Israel brought on itself as they continued their rebellion, after He had turned from them "for a season," and His Hand being the Hand Prophesied will deal with them.

Get a clue - in the Prophecies His Wrath upon them will be followed by His Blessing them.

If you were an Acts 2 Dispy, you'd be making their error and pointing to 1948.

Same two thousand year error is your 70AD "Josephus said..."
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Therefore, TeT may lose his eternal soul in the
Lake of fire. That's where Satan and those who reject Christ
(Unbelievers like TeT) will end up.

Back when I joined TOL in 2007 I was a Dispensationalist for about 3 years.

I was called "brother in Christ" by many of the Dispensationalists here on TOL.

These same Dispies adhere to OSAS (as do I).

Yet, now these same adherents to OSAS such as yourself say I'm going to hell.

When you guys tell me I'm going to hell, aren't you refuting OSAS by doing so?
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Back when I joined TOL in 2007 I was a Dispensationalist for about 3 years.

I was called "brother in Christ" by many of the Dispensationalists here on TOL.

These same Dispies adhere to OSAS (as do I).

Yet, now these same adherents to OSAS such as yourself say I'm going to hell.

When you guys tell me I'm going to hell, aren't you refuting OSAS by doing so?
Who says you were saved?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
There is a difference between God removing His hand and allowing what Israel brought on itself as they continued their rebellion, after He had turned from them "for a season," and His Hand being the Hand Prophesied will deal with them.

That's not what Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 say.

Get a clue - in the Prophecies His Wrath upon them will be followed by His Blessing them.

No they don't.

If you were an Acts 2 Dispy, you'd be making their error and pointing to 1948.

It's not just A2D's who point to 1948.

1948 has nothing to do with Bible prophecy

Same two thousand year error is your 70AD "Josephus said..."

How?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I will preach against TeTs wickedness but, will not respond to his
inane comments. I believe him to be a non-believer and an enemy
of God's Grace Message.

(1 Cor 2:2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
 

Danoh

New member
If He didn't return in 70AD, then the law hasn't been fulfilled, and the law is still in place, every jot and tittle.

Romans 3:

19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 11:

22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Isaiah 59:

His Wrath First:

19. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

His Gifts and Calling Afterwards:

20. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Isaiah 61:

10. And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13. The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14. The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15. Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
16. Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
17. For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
18. Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19. The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

But, I do not post this for you, Tel-tel - a - lie, rather; against you.
 

achduke

Active member
Romans 3:

19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 11:

22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Isaiah 59:

His Wrath First:

19. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

His Gifts and Calling Afterwards:

20. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Isaiah 61:

10. And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
13. The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.
14. The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15. Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
16. Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
17. For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness.
18. Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19. The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.

But, I do not post this for you, Tel-tel - a - lie, rather; against you.

Tet and others,

Why not move over to one of the preterists threads. Can we get back to the origin and meaning of rightly divided.
 

Danoh

New member
Tet and others,

Why not move over to one of the preterists threads. Can we get back to the origin and meaning of rightly divided.

A lot of those posts actually mark out its practice, or failure to. My apologies all the same.

And here ya go - your request:

The following are some observations about your OP I hope you might consider.

Many years ago, I read in some secular source somewhere advice along the line of “before you sit down to think about a problem, you might want to first sit down and think about how you are going to think about the problem.”

In other words, there is a difference between concluding something about a thing, and where we often only think we are actually looking at it from to begin with.

In this, I often find the question ‘where am I looking at this from, and while I’m at it; where am I looking at that from?’ is a question apparently not often asked by many an individual, regardless of whether that subject is the Bible are any of its countless subjects, or any subject in life in general.

A case in point is your OP, here: you request that people “use Scripture to back up…what does this mean to everyone,” and then fail to follow that request yourself; perhaps unaware that such was the case.

Anyway, instead; you go into the Greek, and, and that; isolated from all the rest, and then you follow that with what you “believe… makes more sense.”

And you do that apparently unaware that both your request, and your practice, are each a contrast, distinction or division between things - between your request and your own practice.

Again, this is for your consideration, as I have found this distinction I am noting here has been of much help to me in my own studies.

You relate you base your belief that “Accurately Handling makes more sense” on your understanding that “Cutting straight is making an accurate cut.”

Apparently unaware, once more, as you arrived at that conclusion, that you are actually noting and relying on a contrast, distinction, and division between things; just as Paul himself is relying on a contrast, distinction, and division between things; in that passage, and its immediately surrounding passages, as his means of communicating his intended sense.

Your last question, also contains a contrast, distinction, and division - between “Are we to not to be ashamed for dividing up the Word of God” and “or accurately handling the Word of God?”

In other words, while asserting your belief that that passage is referring to “Accurately Handling,” you appear unaware of the obvious – that the objective “Accurately Handling” cannot but rely on one’s being able to note a contrast, distinction, and division between “Accurately Handling” and not “Accurately” doing so.

Perhaps this is due to studying on your own. But then again, who and or what source, one studies things from, is just as important.

While, more importantly, as we will each give account of what we ourselves had held to as truth, 1 Cor. 3:13; 2, given its impact on our walk, Cor. 5:10, the above is perhaps one of the more important key principles behind avoiding a subjective objectivity, that an objective subjectivity be our guide, when approaching the Scriptures.

Subjective objectivity being my reference to the result that is a conclusion like “what this means to me…,” and or “what makes sense to me is…”

Objective subjectivity, on the other hand, being my reference to a consistent asking throughout one’s studies, of the question - ‘where am I looking at this from, and while I’m at it; where am I looking at that from?’

In this, our studies are actually, alone. In this, perhaps you are better off, studying on your own; especially if you’ll apply the above, consistently.

In this, perhaps you might revisit that passage - and its immediate passages - seeking through the passages as a whole, what general principles, of rules of thumb for communicating intended meaning they might point back to as having been Paul’s reliance there.

Simply keep asking throughout, ‘what general principles for communicating intended sense of meaning through words, do these passages appear to point back to as having been Paul’s here?’

One of those is contrast, or distinction between things – as in his “Study to shew… But avoid…”

Another appears to be the perspective on his part, not only of looking at things as if from a time line of some sort – but of his sense of its having been violated – ‘saying that the resurrection is past.’

Note that as also the case, for example, in Ephesians 2:11’s “Time Past,” verse 12’s “But Now,” and verse 7’s “Ages to Come.” The greater sense of this one here is, for example, one major reason why I subscribe to the Mid-Acts Dispensational Distinction, for example.

Supposed “books about” - the teachings of men - have nothing to do with it. Only those who over rely on books supposedly based on Scripture make that same conclusion about us – that we got this out of books.

The fools – what “books” did Paul get his Three-Fold Division in Ephesians 2 from?

And there are other principles also evident there in 2 timothy 2:15 and its surrounding passages – just keep returning back to the above questions.

Other great questions being, ‘what does the Scripture writer appear to be tying all that to here? And, what words might help better identify that?’ Words like, but, and therefore, and so on…
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
That is one way whereby a Jew living under the law could theoretically obtain eternal life but in order to obtain it that way one had to keep the law perfectly. And no one ever did that but the lord Jesus.

Here is another way that the Jews who lived under the law could obtain eternal life. The Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once those who lived under the law believed they received received eternal life. And the receiving of it was completely apart from law keeping.
Amen. That'll preach again, thanks. I'll give you a nod when I preach it, too. :thumb:
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Tet and others,

Why not move over to one of the preterists threads. Can we get back to the origin and meaning of rightly divided.

It's relevant to "rightly dividing".

Dispensationalists think they have the patent on "rightly dividing". They think the NT has to be divided into what is written to "the church" and what is written to "Israel".

That's not what "rightly dividing" is.
 

achduke

Active member
A lot of those posts actually mark out its practice, or failure to. My apologies all the same.

And here ya go - your request:

The following are some observations about your OP I hope you might consider.

Many years ago, I read in some secular source somewhere advice along the line of “before you sit down to think about a problem, you might want to first sit down and think about how you are going to think about the problem.”

In other words, there is a difference between concluding something about a thing, and where we often only think we are actually looking at it from to begin with.

In this, I often find the question ‘where am I looking at this from, and while I’m at it; where am I looking at that from?’ is a question apparently not often asked by many an individual, regardless of whether that subject is the Bible are any of its countless subjects, or any subject in life in general.

A case in point is your OP, here: you request that people “use Scripture to back up…what does this mean to everyone,” and then fail to follow that request yourself; perhaps unaware that such was the case.

Anyway, instead; you go into the Greek, and, and that; isolated from all the rest, and then you follow that with what you “believe… makes more sense.”

And you do that apparently unaware that both your request, and your practice, are each a contrast, distinction or division between things - between your request and your own practice.

Again, this is for your consideration, as I have found this distinction I am noting here has been of much help to me in my own studies.

You relate you base your belief that “Accurately Handling makes more sense” on your understanding that “Cutting straight is making an accurate cut.”

Apparently unaware, once more, as you arrived at that conclusion, that you are actually noting and relying on a contrast, distinction, and division between things; just as Paul himself is relying on a contrast, distinction, and division between things; in that passage, and its immediately surrounding passages, as his means of communicating his intended sense.

Your last question, also contains a contrast, distinction, and division - between “Are we to not to be ashamed for dividing up the Word of God” and “or accurately handling the Word of God?”

In other words, while asserting your belief that that passage is referring to “Accurately Handling,” you appear unaware of the obvious – that the objective “Accurately Handling” cannot but rely on one’s being able to note a contrast, distinction, and division between “Accurately Handling” and not “Accurately” doing so.

Perhaps this is due to studying on your own. But then again, who and or what source, one studies things from, is just as important.

While, more importantly, as we will each give account of what we ourselves had held to as truth, 1 Cor. 3:13; 2, given its impact on our walk, Cor. 5:10, the above is perhaps one of the more important key principles behind avoiding a subjective objectivity, that an objective subjectivity be our guide, when approaching the Scriptures.

Subjective objectivity being my reference to the result that is a conclusion like “what this means to me…,” and or “what makes sense to me is…”

Objective subjectivity, on the other hand, being my reference to a consistent asking throughout one’s studies, of the question - ‘where am I looking at this from, and while I’m at it; where am I looking at that from?’

In this, our studies are actually, alone. In this, perhaps you are better off, studying on your own; especially if you’ll apply the above, consistently.

In this, perhaps you might revisit that passage - and its immediate passages - seeking through the passages as a whole, what general principles, of rules of thumb for communicating intended meaning they might point back to as having been Paul’s reliance there.

Simply keep asking throughout, ‘what general principles for communicating intended sense of meaning through words, do these passages appear to point back to as having been Paul’s here?’

One of those is contrast, or distinction between things – as in his “Study to shew… But avoid…”

Another appears to be the perspective on his part, not only of looking at things as if from a time line of some sort – but of his sense of its having been violated – ‘saying that the resurrection is past.’

Note that as also the case, for example, in Ephesians 2:11’s “Time Past,” verse 12’s “But Now,” and verse 7’s “Ages to Come.” The greater sense of this one here is, for example, one major reason why I subscribe to the Mid-Acts Dispensational Distinction, for example.

Supposed “books about” - the teachings of men - have nothing to do with it. Only those who over rely on books supposedly based on Scripture make that same conclusion about us – that we got this out of books.

The fools – what “books” did Paul get his Three-Fold Division in Ephesians 2 from?

And there are other principles also evident there in 2 timothy 2:15 and its surrounding passages – just keep returning back to the above questions.

Other great questions being, ‘what does the Scripture writer appear to be tying all that to here? And, what words might help better identify that?’ Words like, but, and therefore, and so on…

Hi Danoh,

I am no greek scholar so someone who understands Greek would be better to answer. The source in the Greek is one word which means to make a straight cut. The KJV translation is "rightly divided". There are other words in Greek to represent divide and is already in use in scripture to mean divide. Would it not have been more clear for Paul use divide instead of cut?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Name them and tell me why they have not been fulfilled? Romans 10:4

First off, I believe they were fulfilled.

Dispensationalism teaches that the three fall feasts are a yet future fulfillment.

Trumpets
Atonement
Tabernacles

Unless you want to claim that the following has been fulfilled:

(1 Cor 15:52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 

achduke

Active member
It's relevant to "rightly dividing".

Dispensationalists think they have the patent on "rightly dividing". They think the NT has to be divided into what is written to "the church" and what is written to "Israel".

That's not what "rightly dividing" is.

Maybe but their preterist disagreement with you just adds noise to the conversation where there is already enough noise. I do not agree with their understanding of rightly divided either but want to understand why they believe the way they do. From what I can gather the translation "rightly divided" stems from one word in greek and from what I can tell that word is used only once in the whole of scripture. They have developed a whole doctrine based on this foundation and I would like to see supporting scriptures to this foundation.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
First off, I believe they were fulfilled.

Dispensationalism teaches that the three fall feasts are a yet future fulfillment.

Trumpets
Atonement
Tabernacles

Unless you want to claim that the following has been fulfilled:

(1 Cor 15:52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Romans 10:4 says that all is fulfilled in Christ.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You, I would say, are an "Enemy of Paul's Gospel" You're a "Neo-Non
Believer of the Grace Message.

You are one of those who need no evidence from the Scriptures to believe what you do. And you are also one of those who run and hide from verses which contradict your silly ideas. For instance, you and those from the Neo-MAD crowd foolishly argue that those who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite what is said here:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

According to your ideas the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works but this verse says that "whosoever" believes in the Lord Jesus is saved by faith alone!

And then you get upset when people believe what is said at John 3:16 instead of your silly ideas and then you start calling them names.

And then you run and hide from John 3:16!

You are a sad case who puts more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

I care what the Bible says.

Prove it by giving me your interpretation of the meaning of John 3:16.

If you just run and hide from that verse then I can only conclude that you do not really care what the Bible says.
 
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