Mixing Law & Grace
- Thread starter OZOS
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Bob Carabbio
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True - Eph 2:8,9
Jerry Shugart
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What about the Jews who lived under the law of Moses but at the same time were saved on the principle of grace?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
"So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” (Acts 15:8-11).
These are the words of Peter and he lived under the law. He says that he was saved by grace just as were the Gentiles. He says that the hearts of both the Jewish believers who lived under the law and the Gentile belivers were purified by faith.
OZOS
Well-known member
The apostle Paul tells us twice that the Law has been "abolished". Those who serve the Law are walking according to the flesh. Those who add the Law to grace are preaching "another gospel" and are to be "accursed" (eternally damned).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Mosaic covenant, the law, had not been abolished when Peter was saved on the principle of grace. Do you deny that those who were saved when living under the law were saved by grace through faith with the following verse in view?:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
OZOS
Well-known member
Either the apostle Paul, and the Lord Jesus Christ are liars, or you are. I'm going to say it's you.
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” - Jesus
"It is finished" - Jesus
2 Cor 3:7-15
"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven IN STONES, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is ABOLISHED:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."
The Apostle Paul says.
1. The ministry of death and condemnation is written & engraved in stones. Those are the 10 commandments.
2. They had glory, but the glory of the Spirit surpasses the 10 commandments.
3. Moses had to put a veil over his face so the Israel would not see the glory of the 10 commandments fading away.
4. If Moses had not had the veil, Israel would have seen that the 10 commandments were to be abolished.
The Law (10 commandments) was abolished. Paul just said so. And he says it again.
Eph 2:14-16
"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, HAVING SLAIN THE ENMITY thereby"
Paul says
1. Jesus broke down the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile.
2. The dividing wall (enmity) is the "Law of commandments"
3. Jesus abolished, in His flesh, the enmity (Law of commandments).
4. There is now no dividing wall between Jew & Gentile
5. Both Jew & Gentile are "one new man" in Christ, because He put to death the enmity (Law of commandments).
The Bible is quite clear that the Law was abolished WHEN Jesus was in His flesh.
Paul is saying that all those who believe the Gospel, either Jews, (who were of the Law) or Gentiles (who did not have the Law) that the promise is for all. No place in Paul's words does he suggest that those Jews who have believed Paul's gospel are still under the Law.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is all I was saying, that those who had faith and lived under the law were saved on the principle of grace:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).
There are many on this forum who teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. But Romans 4:16 prove them wrong.
God's Truth
New member
All are damned until they come to Jesus in obedience to his teachings, and he teaches more than just believe.
God's Truth
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Peter was saved by grace by Jesus, before Paul.
God's Truth
New member
No one was saved by grace before Jesus.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
How was Abraham saved?:
"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:1-4).
That's what I said.
I guess the Savior just forgot to mention the other things which you say are necessary for salvation
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).
OZOS
Well-known member
:crackup:
God's Truth
New member
Consider more carefully the scripture you quote in Romans 4.
Notice that Paul says Abraham as pertaining to the FLESH
That is about the purification/ceremonial work called circumcision.
Still don't believe it?
Look how many times Paul mentions circumcision in Romans.
Just read a little bit farther down from the scripture you quoted:
Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
People misunderstand Paul when he says ‘not of works’, for Paul is speaking of the purification/ceremonial works.
Paul is not speaking of obedience being the ‘not of works’.
People who misunderstand Paul are called foolish by James, and Peter calls them unlearned.
Abraham obeyed and had faith.
James 2: 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
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God's Truth
New member
You said, “The Mosaic covenant, the law, had not been abolished when Peter was saved on the principle of grace.”
Peter was saved by grace after Jesus shed his blood on the cross.
That was way before Paul.
Even Abraham was not made perfect until Jesus shed his blood on the cross.
Hebrews 11:40 God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1 Peter 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
God's Truth
New member
We have to believe that we have to obey this man named Jesus, the son of God.
Since you picked John to make your case that we are only to believe and not obey, let John teach you the truth:
John 8:51 I tell you the solemn truth, if anyone obeys my teaching, he will never see death.”
John 8:52 Then the Judeans responded, “Now we know you’re possessed by a demon! Both Abraham and the prophets died, and yet you say, ‘If anyone obeys my teaching, he will never experience death.’
John 8:55 Yet you do not know him, but I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know him, and I obey his teaching.
John 14:15[ Teaching on the Holy Spirit ] “If you love me, you will obey my commandments.
John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him.”
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and take up residence with him.
John 14:24 The person who does not love me does not obey my words. And the word you hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me.
John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.
John 15:20 Remember what I told you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they obeyed my word, they will obey yours too.
John 17:6[ Jesus Prays for the Disciples ] “I have revealed your name to the men you gave me out of the world. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me, and they have obeyed your word.
God's Truth
New member
Are you saying you are saved before you obeyed any of his commands---that you were saved and knew Him before obeying His commands?
1 John 2:4 Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is not true. In the following passage Paul speaks of God judging men according to their "works":
"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his works: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath" (Ro.2:8).
The "works" spoken of here are in regard to either continuing in well doing or not continuing in well doing, and a person stops continuing in well doing when they sin. Since all people are sinners no one gains eternal life by their works. The same can be said for anyone trying to gain eternal life by law keeping:
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident" (Gal.3:10-11).
Since no one continues in well doing because all sin then all people are dependent on God's grace if they are going to be saved. And "to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
Works and grace are mutually exclusive.
It is those who believe the gospel of grace who are saved:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).
According to your ideas no one is saved by believing the gospel because salvation does not come to anyone until the end of a life of obedience. You don't understand the gospel of grace, much less believe it.
God's Truth
New member
That is all you have to say about all that I posted to you and the scriptures I gave?
You are going to ignore and dismiss it that Paul speaks of CIRCUMCISION?
You are going to dismiss the other apostles saying people are a fool and unlearned for thinking they don't have to believe and do right?
So why don't you read 2 Peter 3:16 and 17 and tell me what it is that Peter says they misunderstand Paul about.
Peter says people misunderstand Paul and then Peter WARNS US TO OBEY.
You think this disproves what I said how?
Those scriptures further prove what I am telling you.
You have the chance to be greatly blessed by believing the truth, but what you do instead is a shame.
You are full of confusion.
You just got through posting Paul says we WILL BE JUDGED by our works, then you contradict yourself and say no one gains eternal life by their works.
Here read what Paul says:
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
Don't be deceived WRONGDOERS WILL NOT inherit the kingdom.
1 Timothy 4:7, 8 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
Did you read that? What is the value of your godliness? It is to the holding of the promise for BOTH THE PRESENT LIFE AND THE LIFE TO COME.
Paul taught to repent of your sins and have faith.
Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Paul says REPENT of your sins.
2 Timothy 2:25 correcting opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth.
Paul is even afraid some of the Corinthians aren't really saved because THEY DIDN'T repent OF THEIR SINS.
2 Corinthians 12:21 I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
Just read here what Paul taught.
He taught that we have to make our THOUGHTS obedient to Christ.
He said to become obedient from the heart.
He said KEEPING GOD's COMMANDS IS WHAT COUNTS.
2 Corinthians 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.
Christians are supposed to KEEP AWAY FROM every believer who doesn't live according to the teaching.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.
Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at itwith all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs,and there is no favoritism.
1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them.
Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.