Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Death and How to Comfort the Family-Part 2

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
    Why would Jesus preach the gospel to the angels in prison?



    The scriptures plainly say that after Jesus died he went to prison.

    Prison is Hell.



    The scripture plainly says that Jesus died and went.

    As for you saying the Holy Spirit is another Spirit---the Bible says there is only one Spirit; AND, the scriptures say the Lord Jesus is the Spirit.



    Those were actual people with a body that came out of their graves.


    Why?
    I'm proving spirits live on after the death of the body, and those scriptures are perfect.

    Jesus filled the whole world by going to Hell and preaching to the spirits of men who disobeyed, and then going to heaven and bringing the spirits of those who were Abraham while in their spirit.
    Would you mind quoting those verses that "plainly say" all these things? When you claim some scripture "plainly says" something, you are really saying "scripture agrees with me, so you have to agree with me." I'm not buying it. That's why we need to have theological discussions, because not one of us perfectly understands all truth.

    Words have different connotations, including yours. What do you mean by "Jesus filled the whole word..."? If He "went to hell", then went to heaven, was He still filling the whole world, or was He only partially filling, since He didn't stay in hell? I would think "filling" wouldn't be temporary, but He's no longer in hell, right?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Derf View Post
      Lon



      I'm not sure I do understand.

      I think you are saying that a glib "they are in a better place" is of little comfort, and I can understand why you would say that, though you agree with the statement.
      Yes, I think you got what I was trying to say

      Originally posted by Derf View Post
      I don't understand your comment about 'He didn't say "at the next funeral."', as I didn't make any sort of statement about "at the next funeral", nor did I see it in your episode you related about the Catholic priest.

      I agree that our comfort is absolutely and only in Jesus Christ and His work. But what does His work consist of? Does it consist of making us "unclothed" or "clothed": 2 Cor 5:2-4?
      "Clothed in His righteousness alone, faultless to stand, before the throne..."



      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

      ? Yep

      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Derf View Post

        Would you mind quoting those verses that "plainly say" all these things? When you claim some scripture "plainly says" something, you are really saying "scripture agrees with me, so you have to agree with me." I'm not buying it. That's why we need to have theological discussions, because not one of us perfectly understands all truth.
        The scriptures plainly say something. You even change what I plainly say. You change it to me saying the scriptures plainly say what the scripture agrees with me so you have to agree with me.

        Just read what you said! You said, ".. .you are REALLY saying...".

        No, read what I said. That is what I really said.


        Originally posted by Derf View Post
        Words have different connotations, including yours. What do you mean by "Jesus filled the whole word..."?
        Jesus filled the WHOLE WORLD.

        Don't you know that scripture?

        Jesus came to earth and taught those on earth. Then Jesus descended to the spirits in prison to preach to them, to those who disobeyed long ago. Jesus then ascended higher than all the heavens. Jesus filled the whole universe (see Ephesians 4:10).


        Now you have the scripture, so can you answer now how you say Jesus filled the whole world if those who have died don't KNOW NOTHING?


        Originally posted by Derf View Post

        If He "went to hell", then went to heaven, was He still filling the whole world, or was He only partially filling, since He didn't stay in hell? I would think "filling" wouldn't be temporary, but He's no longer in hell, right?
        He taught while alive on the earth, he went to prison/Hell and taught, and then went to heaven.

        He also sent his apostles as he was sent, to preach the gospel.
        Oh how I love the Word of God!

        Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Lon View Post
          Yes, I think you got what I was trying to say


          "Clothed in His righteousness alone, faultless to stand, before the throne..."


          Thanks Lon.
          Do you think the idea of clothed in His righteousness is tied to Paul's thoughts that we long to be clothed as here:

          [2Co 5:4 KJV] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
          [2Co 5:6 KJV] Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
          [2Co 5:8 KJV] We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
          [2Co 5:10 KJV] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
            The scriptures plainly say something. You even change what I plainly say. You change it to me saying the scriptures plainly say what the scripture agrees with me so you have to agree with me.

            Just read what you said! You said, ".. .you are REALLY saying...".

            No, read what I said. That is what I really said.
            Is it possibly, even remotely possible, that you might not be as clear ("plain") as you think your are? I.e., if I got the wrong impression of what you are "really" saying, then others might also get the wrong impression? And if you aren't as clear as you think you are, is it possible that scripture isn't as clear in all cases as what you think it is??

            Thus, when you pick out a scripture and say that it "plainly says", you are trying to establish your claim based on your own authority, but making it sound like it comes form scripture.


            Jesus filled the WHOLE WORLD.

            Don't you know that scripture?

            Jesus came to earth and taught those on earth. Then Jesus descended to the spirits in prison to preach to them, to those who disobeyed long ago. Jesus then ascended higher than all the heavens. Jesus filled the whole universe (see Ephesians 4:10).


            Now you have the scripture, so can you answer now how you say Jesus filled the whole world if those who have died don't KNOW NOTHING?




            He taught while alive on the earth, he went to prison/Hell and taught, and then went to heaven.

            He also sent his apostles as he was sent, to preach the gospel.
            This is an interesting side conversation, but why do you think it is relevant? Are you saying Jesus has to be taught in an area for Him to have "filled" that area? Was the Son of God "taught" in heaven before He was sent from God? Is He being "taught" there now? If not, then why is it relevant?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Derf View Post
              Is it possibly, even remotely possible, that you might not be as clear ("plain") as you think your are? I.e., if I got the wrong impression of what you are "really" saying, then others might also get the wrong impression? And if you aren't as clear as you think you are, is it possible that scripture isn't as clear in all cases as what you think it is??
              You did wrong, but want to make it my fault.

              Don't change what I say, and if it is hard for you to understand, then ask me to explain more. Don't just change what I say.

              Originally posted by Derf View Post

              Thus, when you pick out a scripture and say that it "plainly says", you are trying to establish your claim based on your own authority, but making it sound like it comes form scripture.
              That is what I am convinced that your false teachers did when you were taught by them. I'm trying to show you how to read it like you never were taught anything about it. Read it exactly how it is written. I have been taught by many different teachers, so really just trying to help you.

              Originally posted by Derf View Post

              This is an interesting side conversation, but why do you think it is relevant? Are you saying Jesus has to be taught in an area for Him to have "filled" that area? Was the Son of God "taught" in heaven before He was sent from God? Is He being "taught" there now? If not, then why is it relevant?
              I can't tell you how glad I am that you said you find that interesting.
              It is relevant because it proves our spirits live on after the death of our bodies. It gives confidence and knowledge to those who comfort others whose loved ones passed away.
              Jesus has to be taught in an area to have filled that area, because the Bible plainly says that Jesus filled the universe. The son of God was revealed when he came to earth. Those who have died before Jesus got to hear the gospel and the chance to live according to it too.
              Oh how I love the Word of God!

              Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                You did wrong, but want to make it my fault.

                Don't change what I say, and if it is hard for you to understand, then ask me to explain more. Don't just change what I say.


                That is what I am convinced that your false teachers did when you were taught by them. I'm trying to show you how to read it like you never were taught anything about it. Read it exactly how it is written. I have been taught by many different teachers, so really just trying to help you.
                Not changing, just pointing out how people can interpret your words differently from you intend, and thus how you might also be able to misinterpret something as well. Are you saying you never misinterpret anything?


                I can't tell you how glad I am that you said you find that interesting.
                It is relevant because it proves our spirits live on after the death of our bodies. It gives confidence and knowledge to those who comfort others whose loved ones passed away.
                Jesus has to be taught in an area to have filled that area, because the Bible plainly says that Jesus filled the universe. The son of God was revealed when he came to earth. Those who have died before Jesus got to hear the gospel and the chance to live according to it too.
                I'm not convinced that's what it means. What does it mean to you that Jesus filled the universe? If the spirits live on after the death of our bodies, how does that help Jesus to fill the universe??

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Derf View Post

                  Thanks Lon.
                  Do you think the idea of clothed in His righteousness is tied to Paul's thoughts that we long to be clothed as here:

                  [2Co 5:4 KJV] For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
                  [2Co 5:6 KJV] Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
                  [2Co 5:8 KJV] We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
                  [2Co 5:10 KJV] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
                  Yes

                  Originally posted by Derf View Post

                  I'm not convinced that's what it means. What does it mean to you that Jesus filled the universe? If the spirits live on after the death of our bodies, how does that help Jesus to fill the universe??
                  Especially when Spirit/spirit isn't physical.
                  My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                  Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                  Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                  Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                  No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                  Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                  ? Yep

                  Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                  ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                  Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Derf View Post
                    Not changing, just pointing out how people can interpret your words differently from you intend, and thus how you might also be able to misinterpret something as well. Are you saying you never misinterpret anything?
                    There you go again, saying things I didn't say. See, you resist just going by what is said. You are the epitome of an example. lol

                    Originally posted by Derf View Post
                    I'm not convinced that's what it means. What does it mean to you that Jesus filled the universe? If the spirits live on after the death of our bodies, how does that help Jesus to fill the universe??
                    The scripture says he was on earth while alive preaching the gospel, then went to prison/Hell, and then ascended to the highest place. The scriptures say that means he filled the whole universe.
                    Oh how I love the Word of God!

                    Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                      There you go again, saying things I didn't say. See, you resist just going by what is said. You are the epitome of an example. lol
                      I'll let that be the last word on that--lol


                      The scripture says he was on earth while alive preaching the gospel, then went to prison/Hell, and then ascended to the highest place. The scriptures say that means he filled the whole universe.
                      See, no body-less spirits needed .

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Derf View Post
                        I'll let that be the last word on that--lol

                        See, no body-less spirits needed .
                        The scriptures say he died and went to prison/Hell and preached to the spirits of those who died even long ago.

                        The scriptures also say that heaven is where the spirits are now of men whose faith in Jesus' blood made them perfect.

                        Of course there are body-less spirits.

                        The only way a human can go to heaven is in their spirit and no physical human body allowed.

                        Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
                        Oh how I love the Word of God!

                        Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                          The scriptures say he died and went to prison/Hell and preached to the spirits of those who died even long ago.

                          The scriptures also say that heaven is where the spirits are now of men whose faith in Jesus' blood made them perfect.

                          Of course there are body-less spirits.

                          The only way a human can go to heaven is in their spirit and no physical human body allowed.

                          Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
                          You provided scriptures that I responded to, saying they don't necessarily prove your point. To then go back to repeating the same thing with no new information isn't really doing justice to the discussion.

                          And I could use Matt 23:13 back at you. It means nothing in this context, as I'm not preventing anyone from entering the kingdom of heaven. Surely you don't think Jesus was saying the pharisees needed to either die, to enter the kingdom themselves, or arrange for other people to die, to help those others to enter the kingdom. No, but Jesus was referring to entering the kingdom of heaven while people were still alive..

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Derf View Post

                            You provided scriptures that I responded to, saying they don't necessarily prove your point.
                            Of course they prove what I say, because I got it from the scriptures.

                            Originally posted by Derf View Post

                            To then go back to repeating the same thing with no new information isn't really doing justice to the discussion.
                            Your denial isn't a defense. You said false things about the scriptures and about what I said. You need correction.


                            Originally posted by Derf View Post
                            And I could use Matt 23:13 back at you. It means nothing in this context, as I'm not preventing anyone from entering the kingdom of heaven. Surely you don't think Jesus was saying the pharisees needed to either die, to enter the kingdom themselves, or arrange for other people to die, to help those others to enter the kingdom. No, but Jesus was referring to entering the kingdom of heaven while people were still alive..
                            How do you think we enter the kingdom if not spiritually?
                            Oh how I love the Word of God!

                            Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                              There you go again, saying things I didn't say. See, you resist just going by what is said. You are the epitome of an example. lol



                              The scripture says he was on earth while alive preaching the gospel, then went to prison/Hell, and then ascended to the highest place. The scriptures say that means he filled the whole universe.
                              I will just address this one part of your post.

                              If Jesus returned to just being a spiritual being after He rose from the dead why did He send the Comforter? And, why did Jesus use the language He used in reference to the Comforter, i.e. the Holy Spirit? If Jesus was going back to being omnipresent why didn't He just say that I will ask the Father if I can come back as the Comforter? Instead He used language that refers directly to a third person. That is the grammar of the language he used.

                              John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
                              17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
                              “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
                              ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

                              “One and God make a majority.”
                              ― Frederick Douglass

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post

                                I will just address this one part of your post.

                                If Jesus returned to just being a spiritual being after He rose from the dead why did He send the Comforter?
                                Jesus rose from the dead with his body.

                                Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post

                                And, why did Jesus use the language He used in reference to the Comforter, i.e. the Holy Spirit? If Jesus was going back to being omnipresent why didn't He just say that I will ask the Father if I can come back as the Comforter? Instead He used language that refers directly to a third person. That is the grammar of the language he used.
                                Jesus said he would send the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter because the Comforter had been living with them. Jesus is the one who had been living with them; AND, Jesus said he isn’t leaving them as orphans---only a mother or a father can keep a child from being an orphan. Jesus is the Father and the Comforter.

                                While Jesus was on earth during his ministry, the Holy Spirit was not given to all believers yet, not until Jesus died and was raised and returned to the Father, not until Pentecost could all believers receive the Holy Spirit.

                                John 16:7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

                                John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


                                Jesus says to his Apostles that they know the Holy Spirit because he lives with them. JESUS WAS THE ONE LIVING WITH THEM. Jesus is the Holy Spirit.


                                Jesus said that he would send another comforter, the Holy Spirit. He also said that he would not leave them as orphans that HE WILL COME TO THEM.

                                John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

                                This is at the time Jesus told them that he would send them another comforter. Jesus explains to them that it is HE.

                                Instead of their thinking Jesus is coming to live with them in the flesh again, he says another, because he is not coming to them in the flesh, but in another way...just in the Spirit.
                                Oh how I love the Word of God!

                                Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X