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  • ECT: What is a Soul

    Here is a good study by my buddy Amo on what is a soul..
    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

    05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

    from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

    AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

    1) breath, spirit
    1a) breath (of God)
    1b) breath (of man)
    1c) every breathing thing
    1d) spirit (of man)

    When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

    Eccl 12:5..….. because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

    Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

    Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

    Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.

    Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

    How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

    Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

    If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

    Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

    Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

    Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

    Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

    Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death:wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

    Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

    Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

    God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

    Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

    Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

    Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

    Again, why wold a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

    Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

    Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

    Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

    Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

    Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

    Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

    Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.

  • #2
    Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Is God a liar? If a soul is immortal it cannot die. God says the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

    Again, the soul is identified with the person. If the person lives, the soul lives. If the person dies, the soul dies. A soul is a living person with a body combined with the breath, or spirit from God.

    Matt 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The soul is not immortal.

    Matt 16: 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    How can one lose their soul, if their soul is immortal? Where could it go to get away from them.

    Acts 2: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    Christ was raised before His body saw corruption. Thus His soul was not left in hell, or the grave. He once again walked in the light of the living, that is, He became a living soul. This is our salvation. Our souls will not be left in the prison house of death, but we will once again be raised and receive the breath, or spirit of God in our spiritual bodies, and then we shall ever be with the Lord.

    Acts 3: 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    Every soul that will not hear and accept Christ, will be destroyed.

    1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    No mistake about when it is that we receive immortality. It is at the last trump, when the dead are raised incorruptible, and immortal. None of the above makes sense if the soul is immortal.

    Comment


    • #3
      The soul needs saving, it is not immortal.

      James 5:19-20 19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

      The soul needs to be saved from death, it is not immortal.

      Rev 16: 3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

      Souls can die. The souls of humans and animals can die. This is because a soul is a living being, not some form of disembodied spirit or ghost. Souls could not die if they were immortal.
      Here are a few verses that contradict the belief that the spirit is a walking, talking entity that lives on and thinks without our minds.
      The Hebrew word “ruach” is used 377 times in the bible. Strongs Concordance #7306 Ruach=to blow or to breath air, breath, or spirit.
      Ruach is translated in the bible 1) 177 times to mean “wind or air” 2) 33 times to mean “breath” 3) 227 times to mean “spirit”.
      Number 27:16 - Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all FLESH, set a man over the congregation
      Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

      1 Kings 10:5 And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the LORD; there was no more spirit in her.

      Did she die? No.

      This refers to the Queen of Sheba going to visit King Solomon and being flabbergasted at his wealth. This verse is simply stating that all of Solomon’s wisdom and fortune took her breath away.


      Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my NOSTRILS.

      Comment


      • #4
        Here is more with the question and the answers.
        Just what exactly is a soul?

        Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

        Can a soul be purchased?​
        Leviticus 22:11 - But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat.

        Can a soul bleed?
        Jeremiah 2:34 - Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these.

        Can a soul die?
        Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
        Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
        Psalms 78:50 - He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;

        Can a soul go in the grave?
        Psalms 30:3 - O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
        Psalms 35:7 - For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul. (There's more of these but they're the ones I didn't write down).

        Does a soul eat literal food?
        Leviticus 7:18 - And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.
        Leviticus 7:20 - But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

        Can a soul lie?
        Leviticus 6:2 - If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour.

        Can a soul be destroyed by humans?
        Psalms 63:9 - But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

        Can a soul be torn?
        Psalms 7:2 - Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver.

        Do souls have gender?
        Numbers 15:28 - And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

        Can a soul be washed with water?
        Leviticus 22:6 - The soul which hath touched any such shall be unclean until even, and shall not eat of the holy things, unless he wash his flesh with water.

        Can your soul touch an object?
        Leviticus 7:21 - Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

        Can a soul dry away?
        Numbers 11:6 - But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes.

        Can a soul faint?
        Psalms 84:2 - My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.
        Psalms 107:5 - Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.

        Can a soul be humbled with fasting from food?
        Psalms 35:13 - But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.

        Can your soul be persecuted?
        Psalms 143:3 - For the enemy hath persecuted my soul; he hath smitten my life down to the ground; he hath made me to dwell in darkness, as those that have been long dead.

        Can a soul hate God’s law?
        Leviticus 26:43 - The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

        Leviticus 18 is a good chapter on this subject.

        Comment


        • #5
          A Living Human: flesh + spirit = living soul

          A Dead Human/no more soul: flesh - spirit = decayed body on earth and a spirit living in hell or heaven.


          No such thing at this time as a soul going to heaven or hell.

          No such thing as a soul ever going to heaven; spirits go to heaven, not souls.

          For now, only the spirit goes to heaven or hell.

          When we are resurrected from the dead, meaning our spirit is united with a new physical body...then that new soul can be thrown in hell, the final hell, the lake of fire; and the saved live on the new earth in their eternal body/soul on the new earth with God.


          We are flesh and spirit, which makes us a living soul.

          Only spirits can go to heaven.

          Flesh bodies with, or without the spirit cannot go to heaven.

          Angels are spirits.

          There are no souls in heaven, but rather spirits in heaven.

          Spirits of angels are in heaven and spirits of humans are in heaven.



          Our mind, our feelings, our conscious, that is our spirit. If anyone gets a modern English version Bible, you can easily see that whenever the bible talks about our soul, it is at that time concerned with our living body (our physical living body with its spirit).

          Whenever the bible talks about our spirit, it is concentrating on our spirit, our spirit whether in our body or out of our body.

          Whenever the bible talks about our body, it is speaking of a living physical body or a dead physical body.

          A soul is a physical body alive with a spirit. The body is dead without the spirit (James 2:26), and the spirit lives on after death of the body.

          Refer to 1 Thessalonians. We can see that God will sanctify us through and through, our whole spirit (spirit without a body), soul (spirit and body together), and our body (with or without our spirit/dead or alive). God truly sanctifies us through and through.

          1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



          (Leviticus 26:11) (Leviticus 26:30) (Isaiah 42:1) (Zechariah 11:8) (Matthew 12:18) (Hebrews 10:38). Psalm 11:5
          The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked; His soul hates the lover of violence.

          These scriptures speak of God having a soul…a soul is a body with a spirit. If these scriptures are not about Jesus, and if Jesus did not exist in a Spiritual body, then how God who lives in unapproachable light that no one has seen have a body?


          Those scriptures prove that Jesus is God the Father with a body.

          Jesus' body is the soul of God the Father; Jesus is the temple.




          Read this scripture:

          Matthew 10:28
          Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


          That scripture tells us the spirit does not die, but the body does.
          God says kill the BODY but CANNOT the soul (the body and spirit together).

          God says kill the BODY but CANNOT the soul---because a soul is a body with a spirit---and the part that makes the body alive, the spirit, cannot be killed.


          Now read this scripture:

          Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.


          Okay then, you see that after your BODY is dead, God can still throw you in hell.

          That is about you being in hell after your body is dead and that means you are in hell alive in the spirit.




          So how does one go to hell WITH their spirit AND their body?

          That happens after the resurrection of our bodies.

          After the resurrection of our bodies, there will be people who will be thrown in the lake of fire, which is the final hell.


          flesh + spirit = living, soul

          flesh - spirit = dead flesh, spirit gone to God or to hell



          Acts 13:36
          For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep. His body was buried with his fathers and saw decay.



          The spirit returns to God who then decides where the spirit goes. Only spirits can go to heaven. A soul is a body made alive by the spirit. A soul without the spirit is DEAD, a dead body.

          James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

          Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


          We can see from the scriptures that God formed man and it was just a dead lifeless body, but then God breathed a spirit into Adam's body and it became a soul.

          As for heaven, only spirits can go to heaven; no flesh body can go to heaven.


          1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.



          God is the Father of our spirits.


          Hebrews 12:9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live!

          Numbers 27:16
          "May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation

          Zechariah 12:1
          An oracle of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD, who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth, who forms the spirit of man within him:
          Oh how I love the Word of God!

          Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

          Comment


          • #6
            No the 'breath of life' is the 'spirit', and scripture says the animals have it also, and so saying it goes to heaven and hell is incorrect. We have to look to the original words in scripture to see what it says, as this is not an easy thing to understand. The word for "breath" in Genesis 2:7 is neshamah in the Hebrew original and pnoe in the Greek translation. These words mean "breath, wind." The breath that God breathed into the inanimate body gave it life. We find that the same breath of life is spoken of in Job 33:4: "The spirit [ruach] of God has made me, and the breath [neshamah] of the Almighty gives me life." The breath of life (neshamah) is, therefore, the spirit (ruach) that God breathed into Adam's nostrils. The word ruach means "breath, spirit, wind."

            We find that refering to himself during life, Job said, ". . . as long as my breath [neshamah] is in me and the spirit [ruach] of God is in my nostrils. . . ." (Job. 27:3). Once again the "breath" and the "spirit" are identified. When this spirit or breath returns to God the individual dies: "If he [God] should take back his spirit to himself, and gather to himself his breath, all flesh would perish together, and all mortals return to dust" (Job 34:14, 15).

            We find the same in Psalms when he described what happens to man in death: "When their breath [ruach = spirit] departs, they return to the earth; on that very day their plans perish" (Psa. 146:4).

            This explains the description of death as given in Ecclesiastes 12:7: "Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [ruach = breath] shall return unto God who gave it" (KJV). This simply reverses the process as described in Genesis 2:7. Now God takes the life force back to himself and the dead body disintegrates.

            The "spirit" or "breath" that goes back to God cannot possibly be man's immortal soul. If that were so the spirit or soul of all humans, righteous and wicked, would go to heaven when they die, that is not biblical. And the Bible teaches that animals have exactly the same breath of life as man, and this also goes back to God when they die: "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath [ruach = spirit]; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast [in this respect]: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again" (Eccl. 3:19, 20, KJV).

            If that life force were an immortal soul, we would have to argue that animals have immortal souls, clearly unbiblical.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hobie View Post
              No the 'breath of life' is the 'spirit', and scripture says the animals have it also, and so saying it goes to heaven and hell is incorrect. We have to look to the original words in scripture to see what it says, as this is not an easy thing to understand. The word for "breath" in Genesis 2:7 is neshamah in the Hebrew original and pnoe in the Greek translation. These words mean "breath, wind." The breath that God breathed into the inanimate body gave it life. We find that the same breath of life is spoken of in Job 33:4: "The spirit [ruach] of God has made me, and the breath [neshamah] of the Almighty gives me life." The breath of life (neshamah) is, therefore, the spirit (ruach) that God breathed into Adam's nostrils. The word ruach means "breath, spirit, wind."

              We find that refering to himself during life, Job said, ". . . as long as my breath [neshamah] is in me and the spirit [ruach] of God is in my nostrils. . . ." (Job. 27:3). Once again the "breath" and the "spirit" are identified. When this spirit or breath returns to God the individual dies: "If he [God] should take back his spirit to himself, and gather to himself his breath, all flesh would perish together, and all mortals return to dust" (Job 34:14, 15).

              We find the same in Psalms when he described what happens to man in death: "When their breath [ruach = spirit] departs, they return to the earth; on that very day their plans perish" (Psa. 146:4).

              This explains the description of death as given in Ecclesiastes 12:7: "Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [ruach = breath] shall return unto God who gave it" (KJV). This simply reverses the process as described in Genesis 2:7. Now God takes the life force back to himself and the dead body disintegrates.

              The "spirit" or "breath" that goes back to God cannot possibly be man's immortal soul. If that were so the spirit or soul of all humans, righteous and wicked, would go to heaven when they die, that is not biblical. And the Bible teaches that animals have exactly the same breath of life as man, and this also goes back to God when they die: "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath [ruach = spirit]; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast [in this respect]: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again" (Eccl. 3:19, 20, KJV).

              If that life force were an immortal soul, we would have to argue that animals have immortal souls, clearly unbiblical.

              You were close.

              Animals have "souls". The soul is the animating force of the body. But they do not have spiritual souls. When an animal dies its soul dies with it.

              How about Angels? They have spiritual souls. They are pure spirit, not physical, so their soul and spirit are one.

              Humans are the only creature that span the spiritual and physical universes. Humans soul is also a spiritual soul. When a human dies his spiritual soul lives on for all eternity. Man sheds his physical body and lives on forever as spirit.

              Read

              St. Thomas Aquinas and the Nature of the Soul
              https://arabicphilosophyjkh.wordpres...e-of-the-soul/

              It is said that St. Thomas Aquinas referenced Avicenna about 400 times in his works. I would say that counts as being very influential on someone, and we will see just how much influence Avicenna had on the Thomistic interpretation of the soul.

              St. Thomas Aquinas’s anthropology of the soul accounts for three divisions of the soul: the Vegetative, the Sensitive, and the Intellectual/Rational. These divisions are set in a hierarchy: plants have only a Vegetative soul–the power that allows for basics of existence–nourishment, growth, reproduction; the Sensitive is inherent in all animals, irrational and rational (human) and encompasses sensation and perception and movement; and the Intellectual/Rational soul is specific to human beings only and is the soul responsible for reason and thinking. The hierarchy is such that human beings possess all three kinds of soul, irrational animals (all other animals besides humans) possess both the Sensitive and Vegetative powers, and plants only have the Vegetative. (We can see that these divisions and hierarchy are indeed imitative of that of the Avicennian psychology of the soul.)

              As we said, all living beings have at least the Vegetative soul:

              “The lowest of the operations of the soul is that which is performed by a corporeal organ, and by virtue of a corporeal quality. Yet this transcends the operation of the corporeal nature; because the movements of bodies are caused by an extrinsic principle, while these operations are from an intrinsic principle; for this is common to all the operations of the soul, since very animate thing, in some way, moves itself. Such is the operation of the ‘vegetative soul.'” (Summa Theologica, Q. 78, Art. 1)

              St. Thomas Aquinas equates the lowest form of soul with the corporeal nature of a living thing. That is not to say, as we can see from the text above, that this Vegetative soul is reliant on the body, but rather that it “acts only on the body to which the soul is united.” (Q. 78, Art. 1)The Vegetative power of soul is that part which accounts for the basics of life for any animate (ensouled) being. St. Thomas acsribes three powers to the Vegetative soul–Nutritive, Augmentative, and Generative. These powers are, as should be apparent, those which work to keep a living being alive, growing, and continued in existence. The Nutritive power accounts for food and nourishment, without which a living thing would cease to be. It seems very mundane, but if an animate creature is not nourished/fed, it decays/dies. The Augmentative power is associated with growth, which is necessary for all living beings in order to reach the third power of the Vegetative soul, the Generative. The Augmentative (or growth) prepares and readies the animate being for continued existence through reproduction, or self-preservation. The corporeal natures of all living things rely on the basic processes/powers of the Vegetative soul. We can see that without the Vegetative soul, existence of animate beings would be, well, non-existent.

              The second division of soul is what St. Thomas Aquinas calls the Sensitive soul:

              There is another operation of the soul, which is indeed performed through a corporeal organ, but not through a corporeal quality, and this is the operation of the ‘sensitive soul.'” (Q. 78, Art. 1)

              For St. Thomas, the Sensitive soul does not work through corporeal qualities (like that of the Vegetative), but does work through what he calls “corporeal organs.” These organs are the senses. The Sensitive soul encompasses the powers of perception and (willful) movement. Perception here relies not only on the external senses–seeing, hearing, smelling, touching, and tasting–but also on internal senses as well–imagination, common sense, estimation, and the memorative. (As we can see, this delineation is strikingly similar to the Avicennian notion of both external and internal senses associated with the Animal Powers.) The use and powers associated with the senses, both internal and external, allow animals (irrational and human) to go beyond themselves and interact with the world around them. Unlike plants (that have only a Vegetative soul), animals use the powers of the Sensitive soul to take care of the basic needs of existence (the vegetative). Animate beings endowed with Sensitive souls are able to take in knowledge and conduct willful movement by use of the five external senses. The internal senses represent the ability of those with Sensitive souls to store, use, and process that obtained knowledge and information. For St. Thomas, the Sensitive soul “regards a more universal object–namely, every sensible body, not only the body to which the soul is united.” (Q. 78, Art. 1)

              And thus we come to the highest form of soul–the Rational (Intellectual):

              “There exists, therefore, an operation of the soul which so far exceeds the corporeal nature that it is not even performed by any corporeal organ; and such is the operation of the ‘rational soul.'” (Q. 78, Art. 1)

              The rational soul is the power that is unique to the rational animals; the rational soul is only found in human beings. It is this soul that accounts for the ability human beings have to reason and engage in higher order cognitive function (knowledge of universals). It is indeed what makes us human after all. Human reason, intellect, is inherent in the rational soul. It is a power that goes beyond the mere collection and retention of knowledge (through sensory perception)–as with the Sensitive soul; it accounts for our non-sensory knowledge, our knowledge of universals, and our ability to be self-aware. As St. Thomas tells us, the Rational soul “regards a still more universal object–namely, not only the sensible body, but all being in universal.” (Q. 78, Art. 1) Unlike both the Vegetative and Sensitive souls, which both need the body in their own ways, the Rational soul is not reliant on corporeal natures. It is known to itself by virtue of itself; the Rational soul transcends the corporeal qualities (i.e. bodily functions and the senses), maintaining an existence that is not dependent on the body. (Again, if we reference the posts on Avicenna, we will see much of the same line of thought regarding the human soul.)

              If we take what we have here on the Thomistic anthropology of the soul and review the posts on the Avicennian psychology, I think it would be very apparent that we can make the connections between the two philosophies. It is indeed the case that St. Thomas Aquinas was greatly influenced by the philosophy of Avicenna.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                Here is a good study by my buddy Amo on what is a soul..
                Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

                When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.

                05397 hmvn n@shamah nesh-aw-maw'

                from 05395; n f; {See TWOT on 1433 @@ '1433a'}

                AV-breath 17, blast 3, spirit 2, inspiration 1, souls 1; 24

                1) breath, spirit
                1a) breath (of God)
                1b) breath (of man)
                1c) every breathing thing
                1d) spirit (of man)

                When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.

                Eccl 12:5..….. because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

                When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

                Ps 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

                In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

                Ps 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

                Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.

                Ps 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

                How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

                Ps 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

                If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

                Ps 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

                Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

                Ps 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

                Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

                Ps 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death:wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

                Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

                Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

                God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

                Ps 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

                Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

                Ps 89:47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain? 48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

                Again, why wold a soul go to the grave at death if it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death? It is because the body goes into the grave at death, it is a dead soul, it is not living, because the body and the breath or spirit from God have separated.

                Ps 116:7 Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the LORD hath dealt bountifully with thee. 8 For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before the LORD in the land of the living.

                Because his soul was delivered from death, he will walk before the Lord in the land of the living, he is a living soul.

                Ps 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. 175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me. 176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

                Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

                Isa 38:16 O Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit: so wilt thou recover me, and make me to live. 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

                Because he was delivered from death, his soul was delivered from the pit of corruption, that is, the grave. The living, they are the ones who praise God. The dead cannot, because they are not living souls. All such nonsense if the soul is immortal.

                Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
                11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
                12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

                A prophecy concerning Christ. How can a soul be an offering? A sacrifice must die. If the soul is immortal, then it cannot be a sacrifice. Yet Christ poured out His soul unto death for our sins. He died the death we deserved, and when He did, He was no longer a living soul.


                Your saying that man, as a living soul, does not have a spirit, and a soul, and a body.

                Therefore, the writer of 1 Thessalonians 5:23 was quite confused.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trump Gurl View Post
                  Animals have "souls". The soul is the animating force of the body. But they do not have spiritual souls. When an animal dies its soul dies with it.
                  Yet the serpent was a little more evil than the other animals and was cursed a little less than them. And they were included in the destruction of the flood because they were also included in GOD's judgement against evil violence.

                  Were they evil in spirit?

                  Originally posted by Trump Gurl View Post
                  How about Angels? They have spiritual souls. They are pure spirit, not physical, so their soul and spirit are one.
                  Doe this support the idea that we are spirits but a spirit bound in a body is called (not has) a soul? May soul mean the same as spirit except it only refers to a spirit bound in a body?
                  I Champion GOD’s holiness:
                  - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                  - All evil is creature-created.

                  I Champion Our Free will:
                  - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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