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  • ECT: Treatable Conditions

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    Jas 5:14 . . Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of The Lord

    Religious fanatics here and there are allowing their underage children to suffer and even die from treatable medical conditions on the basis of that verse. Where do we draw the line with the so-called "freedom of religion" guaranteed in the US Constitution's first amendment? Answer: We draw the line at the child's inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; which, according to America's Declaration of Independence; are not only God-given rights, but also a self evident truth that men were created with those rights.

    The DOI goes on to say that all men are created equal. It doesn't say grown up men; it says all men, which means that women and children have just as much right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as anybody else. Parents who deny the truth of those rights are nothing in the world but wicked despots; and in point of fact the very kinds of twisted monarchs the DOI targets.

    Christ addressed this issue indirectly by means of his teachings on the seventh day Sabbath; which, in a nutshell, says that the seventh day was made for man, not the other way around. (Mark 2:27)

    Matt 12:11-12 . . And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do good on the sabbath days.

    The sanctity of human life trumps the sanctity of the Sabbath. So then, hospitals, doctors, nurses, firemen, law enforcement, soup kitchens, rescue missions, Red Cross, Haiti emergency workers, etc. who are busy on the Sabbath do not sin. Do they break the Sabbath? Yes; but the sanctity of the Sabbath is secondary to the sanctity of human life.

    So then, I would have to say, in accordance with Matt 12:11-12, that people who deny their children adequate medical care in the name of religion regard the value of their own flesh and blood as something less than that of a beast.

    It's okay to have elders pray for your child, and it's okay to anoint them with oil as per James 5:14. But after that, parents really should take their children to a doctor because the sanctity of human life is far more important than strict observance of one's religious rituals.

    There used to be an old saying going around in Christian circles that went something like this: When a farmer prays for a crop, he should say amen with a hoe. In other words, don't just sit back and wait for a miracle when it's in your power to take some action; and if you don't, then in my opinion, you deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law when a child in your care dies from a treatable condition.

    1Tim 5:8 . . If any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
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  • #2
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    Jas 5:14 . . Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church

    I underlined the pronoun "him" to emphasize that the passage instructs the sick person themselves to request help from church elders rather than the sick person's friends and/or family speaking for him. In other words: the sick person's consent is required in this matter.

    Christianity is a consensual religion, In other words; Christianity was never meant to be forced on people against their will; most especially underage children. If parents want to entrust their own care to a ritual, fine; but forcing an underage child to follow their religious practices without the child first being old enough to fully understand the risks, and given other options, is just downright unchristian.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by WeberHome View Post
      Christianity is a consensual religion, In other words; Christianity was never meant to be forced on people against their will; most especially underage children. If parents want to entrust their own care to a ritual, fine; but forcing an underage child to follow their religious practices without the child first being old enough to fully understand the risks, and given other options, is just downright unchristian.
      False:

      Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. - Proverbs 22:6 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...22&version=KJV

      God expects parents to train their children, especially if they're Christians, to follow God.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

        False:

        Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. - Proverbs 22:6 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...22&version=KJV

        God expects parents to train their children, especially if they're Christians, to follow God.
        Are you not a Super Moderator any more?

        To say that God expects a person to to raise all of their Children to be Christian, kind of leaves out that that all of the Children of Solomon except David were KILLED.

        David even had Joab Killed.

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        • #5
          For some reason I wrote that backwards, all of David's children were Killed except Solomon, and Solomon had Joab killed

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          • #6
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            1Tim 5:23 . . No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

            In the days prior to the proliferation of antiseptics, antibiotics, inoculations, and a host of other mass-produced treatments; wine was an important remedy for just about everything from indigestion to open wounds. (e.g. Mark 15:23, and Luke 10:34)

            Medicine has come a long ways in the last 2,000 years so that even if a little wine would still help whatever ailed Timothy's tummy, there's probably much better over-the-counter, non-alcoholic remedies available for his condition in our day.

            Paul mentioned that his friend had other problems too. I have no clue what those might have been; but I have to ask: Why didn't Paul utilize his apostolic gift of healing to cure his friend? My answer is: probably because Timothy's problems didn’t require a miracle. For example Mark 16:13 where Christ' men utilized oil to treat certain people rather than miracles. In other words: when First Aid will do, surgery is unnecessary.

            I think that Timothy simply wasn't taking proper care of himself and/or getting enough rest. His diet may have been inadequate too. The old adage-- God helps those who help themselves --is very true in some cases. My view is: if you can fix your own flat tire, then don't expect God to fix it for you.

            What else might be taken from 1Tim 5:23? Well; I would say do NOT rely upon so-called faith healing. Too many children are enduring suffering these days due to treatable conditions because their parents are putting so much trust in their church's interpretation of passages like Jas 5:14-15. If Paul recommended a remedy for Timothy's tummy; don't you think he would recommend a remedy for your child's treatable condition? Yes; of course he would. In many, many cases; people don't need a miracle; they just need a doctor.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Child of God View Post
              Are you not a Super Moderator any more?
              I am still a Super Mod. It's a bug with vBulletin, the site software.

              To say that God expects a person to to raise all of their Children to be Christian,
              God expects that parents raise their children in the fear and admonition of the LORD. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

              kind of leaves out that that all of the Children of Solomon except David were KILLED.

              David even had Joab Killed.
              What does any of that have to do with the topic other than to prove my point, that parents should raise their children to fear God, in that it shows what happens when one does NOT.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by WeberHome View Post
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                Jas 5:14 . . Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church

                I underlined the pronoun "him" to emphasize that the passage instructs the sick person themselves to request help from church elders rather than the sick person's friends and/or family speaking for him. In other words: the sick person's consent is required in this matter.

                Christianity is a consensual religion, In other words; Christianity was never meant to be forced on people against their will; most especially underage children. If parents want to entrust their own care to a ritual, fine; but forcing an underage child to follow their religious practices without the child first being old enough to fully understand the risks, and given other options, is just downright unchristian.
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                Apparently you don't pay much attention to scripture for there is an abundance of scripture that contradicts your reasoning.


                Deuteronomy 4:9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons’ sons;
                10Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
                Deuteronomy 6: 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
                6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
                7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
                Deuteronomy 11: 18 ¶Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
                19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
                20 And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
                21 That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.
                Deuteronomy 29: 29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which arerevealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
                Deuteronomy 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,
                2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
                Psalm 132:11 The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.*n2
                12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
                Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
                2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
                3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
                4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
                There are more texts which say the same things, but these are enough to prove the point. Both OT and NT teach that our children are to be brought up to love and obey God.

                What you actually advocate is teaching children while they are young to ignore God and stay in a natural state of rebellion against God. And for some reason you think it is good choice for children to to make for the Bible tells us that our children will return to what it is that they are raised to believe during childhood.

                “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
                ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

                “One and God make a majority.”
                ― Frederick Douglass

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