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  • Originally posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    Can you explain the mystery of the trinity which was formulated over many years by the RCC which doctrines you follow?

    LA
    They cannot. That has been apparent for quite a number of centuries.
    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
    “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
      They cannot. That has been apparent for quite a number of centuries.
      PPS, meet Drake:

      http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=80931

      http://drakeshelton.com/drakes-triadology-stuff/


      Here is the end result of where you are headed:
      http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/28/c...tian-religion/

      AMR
      Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



      Do you confess?
      Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
      AMR's Randomata Blog
      Learn Reformed Doctrine
      I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
      Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
      Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
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      • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
        What a bunch of entitled double-standardized bloviational nonsense. You must demonize everything beyond your understanding tainted by YOUR alleged mystery.

        The Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified; not the DyoHypoTrinity doctrine. YOU and YOUR PREDECESSORS AND PEERS are the ones who have diverted the Gospel to be the mystery of doctrines that are of men's formulation. I've just reformulated for the errors in response.

        That's why I defend the Arians and Unitiarians and Sabellians, etc. It's because through the centuries, you hate-mongering DyoHypoTrins have anathematized, exiled, and murdered anyone who didn't agree with your false contrived dialectic doctrine of men's formulation. It's not because I agree with them or think they're right.

        It's YOUR behavior that distracts from the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. You've replaced the Gospel with the DyoHypoTrin doctrine. Period. So accuse yourself.
        Bah . . .

        Your accusations mean zilch.

        You defend various heretics because you are an enemy of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and reside in the egotistical darkness of mysticism which feeds your unbelief and anti-Christian spirit.

        The evidence of this, is that your denial of the Trinitarian doctrine precludes your teaching anything other than your unbelief in the Triune God. You cannot even begin; nor do you show any interest in, discussing any other theological subjects.

        Thusly, you fail to offer any truths regarding the decretal covenants of God; no praises come from you regarding His sovereignty or attributes; you dismiss the eternal generation of the Son of God who you claim to consider divine; you out of hand reject the historical teachings of the Christian church regarding the hypostatic union of natures in Christ revealing and defining Him as being both God and Man, and who knows what other orthodox doctrines you must refuse or desire to confuse due to these unscriptural denials on your part.

        You cannot post but your non-trinitarian error, and are thus unable to hold forth on any other sound biblical doctrines, for the belief in the Triune God is the only foundation of gospel truth.
        "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

        " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
        Gordon H. Clark

        "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
        Charles Spurgeon

        Comment


        • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
          What a bunch of entitled double-standardized bloviational nonsense. You must demonize everything beyond your understanding tainted by YOUR alleged mystery.

          The Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified; not the DyoHypoTrinity doctrine. YOU and YOUR PREDECESSORS AND PEERS are the ones who have diverted the Gospel to be the mystery of doctrines that are of men's formulation. I've just reformulated for the errors in response.

          That's why I defend the Arians and Unitiarians and Sabellians, etc. It's because through the centuries, you hate-mongering DyoHypoTrins have anathematized, exiled, and murdered anyone who didn't agree with your false contrived dialectic doctrine of men's formulation. It's not because I agree with them or think they're right.

          It's YOUR behavior that distracts from the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. You've replaced the Gospel with the DyoHypoTrin doctrine. Period. So accuse yourself.
          Unitarians and Arians are not biblical Christians. Sabellianism is sectarian, heretical, but not impossibly Christian.

          Trinitarianism is biblical, historical, orthodox. Your philosophical quibbles do not change this whether the speculative details are correct or not.

          Defending cults over Christianity shows your lack of discernment, knowledge, wisdom.
          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
            It is a bizarre theory that is difficult to understand and sounding more like Oneness/modalism than trinitarianism?
            The reason it sounds more like Modalism is because it's Monohypostatic. The O/orthodox Trinity doctrine is Dyohypostatic.

            The problem is in the English term "person/s" and the quantity. A hypostasis is NOT a "person", it's a substance; and scripture only provides one hypostasis for God.

            The greater underlying problem is nobody ever comprehending that eternity is created and God is inherently transcendent TO it and temporality that He created by His Word and His Breath/Spirit.

            It is philosophical, not explicitly biblical.
            No, it's the inverse. The DyoHypoTrin doctrine is philosophical, not explicitly biblical. It was formulated with terms to specifically counter Neo-Platonism at its own game of semantics; but in the process misrepresented scripture.

            Has anyone else ever articulated the same view as you?
            Many have tried. I've gleaned a number of resources over the years with others attempting to compensate for the same paradoxes I've pointed out. None have been able to finish the task because none thoroughly exegeted passages like Isaiah 57:15 with other passages like Psalm 33:6.

            Is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit personally distinct conscious centers?
            No. If they were, that would be a three-souled Deity, which is what YOU have with a DyoHypoTrin view. That's Triadism.

            Speak English, not your own philosophical in-house language. You are not communicating, but confusing everyone.
            I speak lexically. And it's no different than seminarians who discuss the DyoHypoTrin doctrine.

            But let me try to help you recalibrate...

            Before God spoke to create.... It was only God as a singular ousia. No eternity. No heaven. Only God is UNcreated. He doesn't exist in a "where" or a "when" as a "what". He is Self-existent.

            When He spoke, He inhabited eternity AND temporality when and as He spoke/breathed it into existence by His Logos (Word) and His Pneuma (Spirit). They were both internal until He ex- (out from) -pressed and ex- (out from) -haled them.

            What you don't understand is that before creation, God was transcendent to both eternity AND temporality instead of existing IN eternity and being only transcendent to temporality.

            God created BOTH the metaphysical/supernatural realm of existence AND the physical/natural realm of existence. He tents in eternity; it's His abode. He dwelleth there for all everlasting. But eternity had an inception. A beginning. Only God Himself is from everlasting to everlasting. Eternity is upheld by Rhema of His power, just as all else is.

            The first reason you can't comprehend it is because you think only in terms of two dimensions of existence; the everlasting and the temporal. Though God inhabits both, He is inherently transcendent TO both. He created them. He created ALL. He alone is UNcreated. The only reason eternity is everlasting is because of God's own inherent eternality upholding it forever.

            The next reason you can't comprehend it is because you don't know anything about the processions of the Logos and the Pneuma.

            But the main reason you can't comprehend it is because you don't know what the Rhema is. Rhema is the thing spoken ABOUT. The subject matter OF expression by the Logos. The content. The substance OF utterance or other expression.

            The substance OF the Logos was God's OWN substance (hypostasis). So the Word that WAS WITH and WAS God was literally the speaking of God's own substance (hypostasis) out from His own essence into eternity.

            The Logos and Pneuma are God's qualitative two-fold hypostasis in eternity and temporality. And the Logos became flesh as the Son in temporality; born by Mary's faith hypostasis believing the hypostasis of God in the Rhema that she heard when the angel spoke to her.

            What you don't realize is that the DyoHypoTrin God isn't Self-existent; and is contained in an UNcreated realm to even have existence. He's dependent upon a "where" in ALL opposing historical formulations. That's why they were and are arguing. They're ALL wrong, including the DyoHypoTrin view. NONE account for created eternity, and they all compensate in different ways.

            Rather than further divide, I've reconciled ALL other views without compromise. But few will give up their ideology and indoctrination, especially entitled DyoHypoTrins.

            So it turns into a bloodbath of rhetoric, with DyoHypoTrins leveraging their tenure and O/orthodox status; but little realizing they're not even representing the original Trinity doctrine, and that they're wrong, too.

            It's futile and maddening when others aren't ever willing to consider that their concept might be 5-10% wrong and in need of correction.

            I communicate very well and am as articulate as anyone. It's the fact that nobody can process a created eternity very readily; and those who do usually just want to keep their DyoHypoTrin doctrine anyway. They're incompatible.

            God's Logos is His literal Logos, not an additional "person" of three in one being that are all in a created eternity. Two-dimensional thought has a difficult time converting to three-dimensional thought. Your entire reality of God compared to His actual reality is like the difference between a square and a cube. (And no, I'm not comparing God to a cube. I'm illustrating the difference in accounting for created eternity.)

            This may or may not have helped; but every time I teach live with a dry erase board for illustration, it only takes about 30-45 minutes for minds to begin to open and eyes to see the truth.

            I'm teaching an entire staff of Pastors from a large local church of 3000. Once we got to this portion, they balked at first. But after a half hour of clarification from scripture, now they're not DyoHypoTrins any more. They won't go back. They now understand the truth of created eternity and the multi-omni God who created according to Psalm 33:6.
            Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
            “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

            Comment


            • How many of your problems are semantical (are you defining things to suit yourself vs established uses of technical, theological words)?

              There is one eternal, uncreated spirit nature/substance/essence/being of God (ontology/metaphysics)....one what.

              Within this one nature of God are 3 personal distinctions (not 3 gods, not 3 modes/offices) who are co-eternal, co-essential, co-equal.

              The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God (YHWH).

              The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father.



              What would you change or reject about these parameters that are true, but not detailed philosophically?

              Do you agree that only the Word/Son incarnated and that He is one person with two natures (Deity/Humanity)?
              Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

              They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
              I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

              Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

              "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

              The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Nang View Post
                Bah . . .

                Your accusations mean zilch.

                You defend various heretics because you are an enemy of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and reside in the egotistical darkness of mysticism which feeds your unbelief and anti-Christian spirit.

                The evidence of this, is that your denial of the Trinitarian doctrine precludes your teaching anything other than your unbelief in the Triune God. You cannot even begin; nor do you show any interest in, discussing any other theological subjects.
                Blah-de-blah-de-blah. I teach live over 20 hours a week to Pastors and other leaders. The bulk of my teaching isn't even Theology Proper. I have to camp on it here because you guys haven't a clue what the truth is or what teaching really is.

                I have to teach the depths of what charis (grace) and eleos (mercy) and hamartia/hamartano/hamartema (sin/sin/sin) and gnosis/epignosis/oida (knowledge/knowledge/knowledge) and sophia (wisdom) and phonesis (prudence) and dianoia/suneimi (understanding/understanding) and many other things are. Few have a real functional and meaningful comprehension of any of it, and much more.

                Thusly, you fail to offer any truths regarding the decretal covenants of God; no praises come from you regarding His sovereignty or attributes;
                Just because I don't concentrate those efforts here doesn't mean I eschew them or abstain from them. Your snapshot judgment is ludicrous.

                you dismiss the eternal generation of the Son of God who you claim to consider divine;
                He wasn't "generated". He inherently is God's Logos. He was fathered, as are all true sons. Your false three-souled god has an unfathered son. Illegitimate.

                you out of hand reject the historical teachings of the Christian church regarding the hypostatic union of natures in Christ revealing and defining Him as being both God and Man,
                No, I most certainly do not deny the Theanthropos. I even affirm the Cyrilian Christology. But not that F/HS are individuated hypostases.

                You haven't been paying attention. But it's because you have such a limited scope of overall understanding.

                and who knows what other orthodox doctrines you must refuse or desire to confuse due to these unscriptural denials on your part.
                Total presumption from your confusion.

                You cannot post but your non-trinitarian error,
                I'm not the one in error, and I'm a Trinitarian. A Monohypostatic Trinitarian.

                and are thus unable to hold forth on any other sound biblical doctrines,
                How would you know?

                for the belief in the Triune God is the only foundation of gospel truth.
                And there you have it. Your blatant admission... no, INSISTENCE... that the Gospel is not Jesus Christ and Him crucified; but the Gospel IS the DyoHypoTrinity doctrine.

                You're a lie and the father of it.
                Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Nang View Post
                  Bah . . .

                  Your accusations mean zilch.
                  LOL. Bah... Your false doctrine of a three-souled god means zilch.

                  You defend various heretics because you are an enemy of the gospel of Jesus Christ,
                  No. I defend them as people who are attacked and maligned by hate-mongering entitled indoctrinates of error who bask in an unwarranted sense of superiority they somehow mistake as love for a Gospel they misrepresent with their false three-souled god.

                  I don't defend their doctrine at all. Big diff.

                  and reside in the egotistical darkness of mysticism which feeds your unbelief and anti-Christian spirit.
                  Says the quintillionth proponent of a three-souled impotent god who couldn't even create His own dwelling place for everlasting.

                  And don't spew epithets at me about egotism as a novice zealot of untruth.

                  The evidence of this, is that your denial of the Trinitarian doctrine precludes your teaching anything other than your unbelief in the Triune God.
                  More speculative drivel.

                  You cannot even begin; nor do you show any interest in, discussing any other theological subjects.
                  Sure I do. Live. There's little time left for much else online. I'm not on here much. What's it to you? Now you want to police how I allocate my time and energy.

                  That's typical of an entitled overbearing power-monger.

                  Thusly, you fail to offer any truths regarding the decretal covenants of God; no praises come from you regarding His sovereignty or attributes; you dismiss the eternal generation of the Son of God who you claim to consider divine; you out of hand reject the historical teachings of the Christian church regarding the hypostatic union of natures in Christ revealing and defining Him as being both God and Man, and who knows what other orthodox doctrines you must refuse or desire to confuse due to these unscriptural denials on your part.
                  I've addressed all this drivelous expectation.

                  You cannot post but your non-trinitarian error, and are thus unable to hold forth on any other sound biblical doctrines, for the belief in the Triune God is the only foundation of gospel truth.
                  Nope. And nope.

                  Ad hominem after ad hominem after ad hominem. And most of it a double standard anyway.
                  Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                  “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                    How many of your problems are semantical (are you defining things to suit yourself vs established uses of technical, theological words)?
                    None. It's more of a shift to include created eternity. I've retained ALL else. The DyoHypoTrin doctrine is 90-95% correct overall. It's the last bit that is an enormous difference.

                    There is one eternal, uncreated spirit nature/substance/essence/being of God (ontology/metaphysics)....one what.
                    Yes, except.... God isn't a "what". God created all "what". God IS. God is the existent one. The source for all existence. It's beyond semantics as a difference.

                    Within this one nature of God are 3 personal distinctions (not 3 gods, not 3 modes/offices) who are co-eternal, co-essential, co-equal.
                    No. This is the distinction. Within the singular TRANSCENDENT ousia (essence), there is one hypostasis (substance). That substance is the Rhema; the thing spoken ABOUT by the Logos. And the Logos and the Pneuma are spoken/breathed forth by procession (NOT emantion) as the heavenly two-fold hypostasis of God when/as eternity is created.

                    There aren't 3 same-somethings within the singular ousia. There is a qualitatively two-fold singular something within the singular ousia.

                    By His OWN Logos, God pierces to the dividing asunder of His OWN Spirit out from His OWN Self (Soul) for both the Logos and the Pneuma to process into eternity. They are the same substance (hypostasis) with NON-MODAL qualitative distinction of function and location. God (the Father) is the ousia; and being conjoined to the hypostasis, is co-inherent in the procession into created eternity.

                    The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God (YHWH).
                    Yes. But NOT as three hypostases in one ousia.

                    The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father.
                    Yes, I've affirmed that many times on TOL.

                    What would you change or reject about these parameters that are true, but not detailed philosophically?
                    I've noted it in the above. There aren't three internal same-somethings. There is one ousia in transcendence. In eternity, there is the two-fold hypostasis of the Logos and the Pneuma that aren't "persons", but are the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit and the finite point of local presence as the Logos.

                    In eternity, there is a processed two-fold hypostasis and an ousia, not three hypostases in one ousia. The "in" is the transcendence they proceeded forth FROM.

                    Do you agree that only the Word/Son incarnated and that He is one person with two natures (Deity/Humanity)?
                    Absolutely, and according to the Cyrilian formulation. Theanthropos.
                    Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                    “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                      I teach live over 20 hours a week to Pastors and other leaders.
                      May God have mercy upon them and give them holy discernment of your errors.

                      The bulk of my teaching isn't even Theology Proper.
                      No kidding!


                      I have to camp on it here because you guys haven't a clue what the truth is or what teaching really is.
                      Spoken like a true Hermetic Alchemist.

                      I have to teach the depths of what charis (grace) and eleos (mercy) and hamartia/hamartano/hamartema (sin/sin/sin) and gnosis/epignosis/oida (knowledge/knowledge/knowledge) and sophia (wisdom) and phonesis (prudence) and dianoia/suneimi (understanding/understanding) and many other things are. Few have a real functional and meaningful comprehension of any of it, and much more.
                      Terminology does not doctrine make . . .



                      He wasn't "generated". He inherently is God's Logos. He was fathered, as are all true sons. Your false three-souled god has an unfathered son. Illegitimate.
                      This entire statement is contradictory. That us because you apparently have no knowledge or conception, of the doctrine of "eternal generation "

                      No, I most certainly do not deny the Theanthropos.
                      .

                      Again you revert to a term, rather than referring to the pertinent doctrine. Only skeptics hang their hats on linguistics rather than the entirety of biblical revelation.

                      I even affirm the Cyrilian Christology. But not that F/HS are individuated hypostases.
                      Neither of these statements have anything to say about biblical teachings of the incarnate Christ.
                      "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

                      " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
                      Gordon H. Clark

                      "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
                      Charles Spurgeon

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ask Mr. Religion View Post
                        I'll humor you and go read these; then I'll be back to edit for comments.

                        The problem is... you have no idea what I affirm, disaffirm, and/or purport for Theology Proper; and you have no idea what my thorough criticisms are for the paradoxes of the DyoHypoTrin doctrine.

                        In fact, if the modern concept of the Trinity hadn't drifted to Triadism with the three hypostases having individuated centers of sentient consciousness (three souls), I wouldn't even take as much issue overall.

                        But most modern professing Trinitarians are Triadists. That's one of the main underlying reasons I spent a decade reformulating the error of O/orthodox Theology Proper while retaining all sub-tenets and avoiding all heresies.

                        I'll be back after reading. Maybe tonight, but it's late.
                        Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                        “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                        Comment


                        • Drake's rabbit hole is quite deep, so take a few days digging around therein.

                          AMR
                          Embedded links in my posts or in my sig below are included for a reason. Tolle Lege.



                          Do you confess?
                          Founder, Reformed Theology Institute
                          AMR's Randomata Blog
                          Learn Reformed Doctrine
                          I fear explanations explanatory of things explained.
                          Christian, catholic, Calvinist, confessional, Presbyterian (PCA).
                          Lex orandi, lex credenda: everyone is a Calvinist on their knees.
                          The best TOL Social Group: here.
                          If your username appears in blue and you have over 500 posts:
                          Why?


                          Comment


                          • One 'what'; 3 'who'.

                            It sounds like you have some weird concept of one person, one God, with Father being God's spirit, Son being God's body, and Holy Spirit being God's spirit?!

                            You are not as clear as you think.

                            You also seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill with semantics and obfuscation.

                            If we are in 95% agreement according to you, you are wasting much time and energy on a philosophical point without historical, biblical precedent, like a thinly veiled gnosticism on your part (not Gnosticism, but some kind of elite knowledge the rest of us cannot get).

                            There is no reason to reject the relationships of Father, Son, Holy Spirit as personally distinct, 3 conscious centers, not 3 gods, one essence, not one person.

                            I give up...
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Nang View Post
                              May God have mercy upon them and give them holy discernment of your errors.

                              No kidding!

                              Spoken like a true Hermetic Alchemist.

                              Terminology does not doctrine make . .

                              This entire statement is contradictory. That us because you apparently have no knowledge or conception, of the doctrine of "eternal generation "

                              Again you revert to a term, rather than referring to the pertinent doctrine. Only skeptics hang their hats on linguistics rather than the entirety of biblical revelation.

                              Neither of these statements have anything to say about biblical teachings of the incarnate Christ.
                              Drip, drip, drip. That's all you can do with your hate-mongering and erroneous doctrine of men.

                              And I despise hermeticism, etc. You know nothing of it or you wouldn't toss those terms around as you do. I've recently spent time decrying the local forum mystic, freelight.

                              Go spew your indoctrinated crap at someone who doesn't know better. I grew up as a DyoHypoTrin for 28 years. Lost. It's because I was a Triadist, just like you.
                              Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                              “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                                Drip, drip, drip. That's all you can do with your hate-mongering and erroneous doctrine of men.

                                And I despise hermeticism, etc. You know nothing of it or you wouldn't toss those terms around as you do. I've recently spent time decrying the local forum mystic, freelight.

                                Go spew your indoctrinated crap at someone who doesn't know better. I grew up as a DyoHypoTrin for 28 years. Lost. It's because I was a Triadist, just like you.
                                What is a triadist? Father, Son, Holy Spirit relate personally (e.g. Jn. 1:1 pros/face to face...WITH). It is not a tritheist, so what is your beef?

                                Who else holds your view? What influenced you to leave your 28 year position? Author? Writings? Did you dream this up yourself or can I read your view somewhere else modern or ancient?

                                Since I cannot understand you, maybe I can understand someone else.

                                I have not run across it in theology discussions at any point in 33 years. Is it such a minority view that it is unique to you or extremely rare to a few in the happy holy huddle?

                                Throw me a bone instead of long pregnant jelly bean posts with words that are not defined.
                                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                                Comment

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