ECT Which Gospel Preached During the Tribulation Period?

[Nang]

If you are in Christ, your sins are gone, and no guilt is imputed.
Yet, you will still die.

". . I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:25-26

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

". . though he may die,

Romans 5:14 (KJV)
death of the body

 

[Nang]

If you are in Christ, your sins are gone, and no guilt is imputed.
Yet, you will still die.

All Christians are guilty sinners, which their physical death proves. The only thing that reverses and pardons the guilt of Christians, is the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

His righteousness imputed to the account of His children, will conquer their physical death, and when their bodies sleep, their souls will immediately be with Him in heaven. II Cor. 5:5-8

What your teaching implies (before Moses there was no guilt) is that all souls that lived between Adam and the revealing of the Decalogue, died like saved believers. Their guilt was removed and all died in grace.

If not, God was unjust and punished people for breaking laws they knew nothing about.

Is either scenario sound, biblical teaching, STP?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I know exactly what you said.. and it just proves what I am saying.

How does anything that I said prove that you are right?

If you know exactly what I said then why did you write the following?:

Really?... Old Testament people knew about the heavenly mt zion, temple and jerusalem.

In fact, I said the very opposite:

"But those who first received the following prophecies knew nothing about a heavenly mont Zion or a heavenly Jerusalem."

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

What your teaching implies (before Moses there was no guilt) is that all souls that lived between Adam and the revealing of the Decalogue, died like saved believers. Their guilt was removed and all died in grace.

Nope, just believe that they were sinners, they sinned, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Regardless of not being imputed sin, they died. As the Bible says...


Romans 5:13 (KJV)

 

[Nang]

Nope, just believe that they were sinners, they sinned, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Regardless of not being imputed sin, they died. As the Bible says...


Romans 5:13 (KJV)

God is just and His rulings and sentencing is forensic. It would be unjust of God to declare any man "guilty" if there was no law broken.


Even if all the souls between Adam and Moses were accounted as sinless and innocent before God, would still be imputed with Adam's guilt. For Adam, as federal head of the human race, brought sin and guilt upon all, when he broke God's Covenant of Works (Law).

These souls (remember that includes all those who perished in the judgment of the flood) who you say were not imputed with sin, died at the hand of God. There then, by necessity, had to be legal basis for God to bring death upon all . . . else God is an unjust monster, as all anti-christs would like to make out.

The legal basis for God imputing guilt and the death sentence upon Adam was the formal commands given in the garden, and the legal basis for God imputing guilt and the death sentence upon all his descendants is the inheritance of a corrupted human nature that suppresses the evidences of the Godhead in all creation.

There is no excuse for any man to sin. All men were created and are born under the Covenant of Works (Law) and are held in bondage to that contract unless rescued and freed under the new Covenant of Grace.

Nang

 

[andyc]

If there was no law at all before Moses, there would have been no sins or guilt imputed, and if there was no guilt, there would have been no deaths.

That's the argument Paul uses to explain how we are condemned in Adam.

But there was death, there was guilt and sin, which logically must mean there was a creational and natural law.

They died in Adam.

What Paul is teaching about in Romans 5:13 is the formal Law. Adam received formal commands (which he broke) and the nation of Israel received The Ten Commandments, which were a republication of the laws given to Adam.

He only received one commandment, and it was not a moral commandment. It was a warning that they would die if they took the fruit. Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good evil (moral discernment) until after they took the fruit.

Details (many details!) were ADDED. In order to fully reveal the sinful condition of mankind.

When they were awakened to the knowledge of good and evil, they had to live by their conscience until the law was introduced (dispensation of conscience).

But even those who never heard any direct commands from God like Adam or the Israelites who received the Ten Commandments, still died. They were without excuse and held guilty and served the death sentence. God would not be just to hold any person deserving of death apart from a forensic ruling. And a forensic ruling is imposition of Law!

Adam's sin was imputed to them, and therefore they died physically.

The natural law of creation that reveals the Godhead, saves no soul, but rather condemns all mankind:

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even the eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse because, although they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened." Romans 1:20-21

Genesis 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

This reflects a breaking of the creational, natural laws of God as surely as any violation of one of the formal Ten Commandments. All reveal a Covenant of Works that ALL men are responsible and obligated to keep with God.

One of the worst fruits of dispensationalism, is the creation of a mindset that reveals the tendency to chop Godly truths up to fit selected time periods.

I agree that they take it to a ridiculous extreme, but there are dispensations of innocence, conscience, law, and grace etc.

But the guilt of mankind, for offending the laws of God (natural and formal) is historically universal, and has existed from the beginning of time.

The seriousness of the sin committed depends on the dispensation of the time.

 

[Nick M]

The New Jerusalem is the final abode of the Body of Christ. Christ will reign as King over His final, eternal Kingdom right here on the Earth (per the new heavens and New Earth as Peter reported and we are told in Revelation). Who is in the Body? It is the remnant of Israel and the Gentiles who have been saved.

God has blinded Israel - still present tense. God will deal with Israel again during the Tribulation Period. A remnant will be saved and will recognize Him as the True Messiah when He returns.

:up:

They will become part of the Body of Christ.

They will be his bride on earth. There are 12 apostles for 12 tribes that will be ruled over. They are not a part of the spiritual plan, the Body of Christ.

 

[andyc]

You don't sound too excited about it.

I am more on the side of covenantalists, but there is a basic error that determinists make in assuming that Adam made a moral decision to sin when he took the fruit. They assume he was created as a free moral agent, when in reality he was created morally innocent. He became like God knowing good and evil after he took the fruit, which suggests he was ignorant of it before.
We can tell our children not to run out in the road without looking, and its not a moral failure on their part if they do, but the consequences may still be irreversible if they go ahead and do it anyway.

 

[Nang]

That's the argument Paul uses to explain how we are condemned in Adam.

Exactly right.

They died in Adam.

Indeed. But there is no reason to assume they did not add their own transgressions to the original sin:

"Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and the intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5

He only received one commandment, and it was not a moral commandment.

We know of three commandments given to Adam. He was to have dominion over creation. He was to be fruitful and multiply. (Genesis 1:28) and he was not too eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Genesis 2:17)

Within these revealed commands (there may have been others that we are not told about), are the seeds of the Ten Commandments.

Adam broke these commandments, but primarily he broke the greatest law, and that was to acknowledge God as his Sovereign through willful obedience. (Exodus 20:2; Matthew 22:37-40)

I believe any command given by God is "moral" in nature.

It was a warning that they would die if they took the fruit.

It was a moral command; a prophecy; a promise.

Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good evil (moral discernment) until after they took the fruit.

When they were awakened to the knowledge of good and evil, they had to live by their conscience until the law was introduced (dispensation of conscience).

It is my belief that A&E had not only advanced intellect and knowledge before the fall, but also moral consciousness prior to the fall, for God had given them moral agency to secondarily cause and effect their existence and surroundings. Romans 1:18-25 depicts the events in the garden (as well as being applicable to mankind at large).

Adam's sin was imputed to them, and therefore they died physically.

Correct.

The seriousness of the sin committed depends on the dispensation of the time.

The wages of all sin is death. So sin is always serious.

Nang

 

[Nang]

I am more on the side of covenantalists, but there is a basic error that determinists make in assuming that Adam made a moral decision to sin when he took the fruit. They assume he was created as a free moral agent, when in reality he was created morally innocent. He became like God knowing good and evil after he took the fruit, which suggests he was ignorant of it before.
We can tell our children not to run out in the road without looking, and its not a moral failure on their part if they do, but the consequences may still be irreversible if they go ahead and do it anyway.

Disobedience is a moral failure. For the Law of God is moral.

Unless one is not given any commands (laws) to obey. Then all that exists is amoral anarchy or nihilism.

 

[Nang]

I am more on the side of covenantalists, but there is a basic error that determinists make in assuming that Adam made a moral decision to sin when he took the fruit. They assume he was created as a free moral agent, when in reality he was created morally innocent. He became like God knowing good and evil after he took the fruit, which suggests he was ignorant of it before.

God created Adam to be willfully submissive to His Sovereign will and Word. (Law)

Adam knowingly and deliberately disobeyed the command (Law) to not eat of the forbidden tree.

By doing so, he broke almost all of what would one day be reiterated to mankind as the "Ten Commandments." Mostly One and Two, but also Seven. For not only Adam died, but all his seed was consigned to death ("murdered") by his willful and rebellious actions. And commandment Ten was broken in that Adam "coveted" what God said was not his.

(There are books written about how the commands of God given in the garden, reflected all of the Decalogue, with the intent to show how offensive to God was Adam's disobedience! It makes an interesting study.)

Nang

 

[andyc]

Disobedience is a moral failure. For the Law of God is moral.

Unless one is not given any commands (laws) to obey. Then all that exists is amoral anarchy or nihilism.

The thing is, righteousness cannot be appreciated without the understanding of unrighteousness. Therefore a person only be right if they choose what is morally right, but Adam didn't have a clue about morality. The bible says they were naked and not ashamed, so there could be no inner thoughts of sin if they didn't know what sin was.
In the case of the command the broke, it was the devil that provided the motive and justification in order to tempt them. These thoughts did not originate within Adam and Eve, otherwise we would have to conclude that they were created with a sin nature.

 

[andyc]

God created Adam to be willfully submissive to His Sovereign will and Word. (Law)

Adam knowingly and deliberately disobeyed the command (Law) to not eat of the forbidden tree.

By doing so, he broke almost all of what would one day be reiterated to mankind as the "Ten Commandments." Mostly One and Two, but also Seven. For not only Adam died, but all his seed was consigned to death ("murdered") by his willful and rebellious actions. And commandment Ten was broken in that Adam "coveted" what God said was not his.

(There are books written about how the commands of God given in the garden, reflected all of the Decalogue, with the intent to show how offensive to God was Adam's disobedience! It makes an interesting study.)

Nang

The thing is, Nang, I can't see any of this in the bible. It would be impossible for a natural fleshly man to live perfectly in a moral society. Adam was created to be the boss of his own world, he was answerable to no one, not even God. If he was ignorant of moral law, he wouldn't have been burdened by it. By taking the fruit and being awakened morally, he experienced shame for the first time. It wasn't until after he had taken the fruit that he realized he had failed morally.
When they were originally given the commandment, the only consequence they understood was death. The reason they became ashamed of their nakedness is because they were no longer innocent.

 

[Nang]

The thing is, righteousness cannot be appreciated without the understanding of unrighteousness.

I go along with that.

Therefore a person only be right if they choose what is morally right, but Adam didn't have a clue about morality.

I have trouble with this, for Adam walked in fellowship with Holy God. If Adam did not understand morality or Godly holiness, it would have to be because he suppressed such witness all around him, for after all, everything had been created "good!"

The bible says they were naked and not ashamed, so there could be no inner thoughts of sin if they didn't know what sin was.

Agreed. I do not think A&E could envision sin or death, for those things were not in their created world.

That is why I believe so strongly that God had given commands (Law) to Adam, which explains Adam's actions as a deliberate disbelief in God's Words, rather than an innocent slipping into sin.

In the case of the command the broke, it was the devil that provided the motive and justification in order to tempt them. These thoughts did not originate within Adam and Eve, otherwise we would have to conclude that they were created with a sin nature.

Partially agreed. The devil used deceit and contradiction of God's Words to lure A&E, but there was a rebelliousness latent in Adam's heart, mind, and soul that provoked pride and a desire to "be like God."

It was not from a sinful nature, but from a limited, finite human nature, that as was demonstrated in Eden, was subject to sin from the beginning.

The human nature of Adam was created good, innocent, and upright . . . but his prefall human nature was not close to the human nature that was revealed in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

It took Christ coming in the flesh to elevate mankind to a higher level of consciousness and morality.

 

[beloved57]

nang:

It is a fallacy to believe that the Law did not arrive until God gave it to the nation of Israel through Moses.

Correct, it was given to Adam in the beginning in the words of gen 2:

15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Man could not keep the Law in that it was weak in the flesh ! Thats proven by how Eve was deceived by the serpent through appealing to her flesh !

Gen 3:

1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food[Her flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

So Man in his prefallen condition was weak in the flesh rom 8:

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,

and could not keep one law of God, now that we are born fallen, many believe they can keep 10 lol..

The fact that the law was given to men before Sinai also is reflected in that men died from adam to moses, because they were born lawbreakers and sinners.

They could not be sinners and die, if they broke no law ! rom 5:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. So sin must have been imputed since death reigned, so there was law !

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[andyc]

I go along with that.




I have trouble with this, for Adam walked in fellowship with Holy God. If Adam did not understand morality or Godly holiness, it would have to be because he suppressed such witness all around him, for after all, everything had been created "good!"





Agreed. I do not think A&E could envision sin or death, for those things were not in their created world.

That is why I believe so strongly that God had given commands (Law) to Adam, which explains Adam's actions as a deliberate disbelief in God's Words, rather than an innocent slipping into sin.




Partially agreed. The devil used deceit and contradiction of God's Words to lure A&E, but there was a rebelliousness latent in Adam's heart, mind, and soul that provoked pride and a desire to "be like God."

It was not from a sinful nature, but from a limited, finite human nature, that as was demonstrated in Eden, was subject to sin from the beginning.

The human nature of Adam was created good, innocent, and upright . . . but his prefall human nature was not close to the human nature that was revealed in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

It took Christ coming in the flesh to elevate mankind to a higher level of consciousness and morality.

What if Adam had committed adultery before he took the fruit?
If he knew it was morally wrong to commit such an act, it would have been a sin. However, it was only the taking of the fruit that would have resulted in death. How could Adam have continued to fellowship with God as a sinner?

 

[Nang]

The thing is, Nang, I can't see any of this in the bible. It would be impossible for a natural fleshly man to live perfectly in a moral society. Adam was created to be the boss of his own world, he was answerable to no one, not even God.

This is not so. Whenever God gives commands, men are answerable to that Law, and Adam was no exception. Adam was given a free moral agency to work secondary cause and effect, but Adam was never so autonomous from God; nor morally free to break God's commands and Law.

If he was ignorant of moral law, he wouldn't have been burdened by it.

That is why I do not believe Adam was ignorant of morality and/or Law. God would not have held Adam responsible and accountable under a Covenant of Works (Law) unless Adam was aware of the laws and terms of the agreement.

By taking the fruit and being awakened morally, he experienced shame for the first time. It wasn't until after he had taken the fruit that he realized he had failed morally.

Well then, you are reducing the fall of Adam to just being a mistake. Do you really believe God would punish Adam and the entire human race because of an innocent mistake? I think not.

God is just. His sentence of death, by necessity, had to be based on Law, and Adam surely had knowledge of God's spoken commands (Law).

Remember Genesis 2:17. Adam might not have been able to envision death, but Adam was surely told about death and what would cause it.

When they were originally given the commandment, the only consequence they understood was death. The reason they became ashamed of their nakedness is because they were no longer innocent.

If A&E understood death (which contradicts your statements above about their having no idea of morality), then they were not innocently mistaken when Adam willfully and deliberately disobeyed God and broke the very command that prophesied his death.

They simply did not believe God's Word and they deliberately broke God's Law.

And their nakedness shamed them, because not only did sin corrupt their souls, but also their bodies. The corruption of sin showed. And the evidence of their corruption required covering. Which required the sacrifice of animal blood, which God Himself provided them.

Nang

 

[Jacob]

Yes.

The Covenant of Works (Law) came before the Covenant of Grace.

Some believe people are saved by keeping the Law.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Some did not see.

Hebrews 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Some are "in the know", but not all.

1 Corinthians 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

Ephesians 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Colossians 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

So when did grace come in?

Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Romans 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

Romans 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Romans 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So how is a person saved? Is it the same before Christ as after? What conditions are there with grace?

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

For if the Covenant of Works (Law) had not been broken by A&E there would have been no need of another covenant or promise of grace from God.

I see the situation with Adam and Eve as God being in covenant with Adam and Eve, and giving them instruction. They certainly transgressed the commandment of God. The question you are flirting with is if God had planned salvation in Christ before Adam and Eve sinned. I hope you don't say that God caused Adam and Eve to sin.

The Mosaic Covenant (formal Law) came after the promises of grace made to Eve and the promises of grace made to Abraham.

I view Law as instruction, and perhaps in another way a body of commands. Of course God's commands began with Adam, but don't they continue with us? Grace does not mean God's instructions cease. We aren't exempt from sin because of God's grace. We still must be obedient even as Christ was obedient to the point of death on a cross.

The Ten Commandments are an expanded version of the Law as was given to Adam in the garden, which violation of course, preceded the necessity of a saving grace from God.

I understand this to be your perspective. But it sounds like you are adding Law to Law instead of just adding Law. The Law came in. It (God's commands through Moses) were not there previously. Some supposed that even the sabbath commandment was there in the garden. But you have to read all of what Paul wrote. The Law was not there previous to Moses.

I know this is new thinking for you, but Scripture is clear. There are two covenants. One of Law and one of Grace. All persons live or die under one or the other.

Nand

Hmm. Two covenants huh? I know there are more than that. But when you say old covenant you have to mean the Law in Moses. You can't mean Works in Adam. Works isn't even an issue without the Law (in Moses). My view of your position is that Grace was not there until Jesus, or is not there apart from Jesus (maybe to include those who died in Christ before Christ?). And, that you also have Law or Works. You don't see salvation in lawkeeping because Paul points out salvation is not of works. But, do you call even before the old covenant (Moses) "the old covenant" (ADAM????), simply because Genesis is a part of what is called the "old testament" in terms of literature and the Hebrew Bible (TaNaK)? It sounds like a defense system for corrupted theology, responsive to the world and protective of God.

 

[Nang]

What if Adam had committed adultery before he took the fruit?

No one for Adam to commit adultery with.

However, unfaithfulness to God and God's Word is often called spiritual adultery in the Bible.

So in effect, when Adam listened to the devil's words rather than obeying God's Words, Adam committed spiritual adultery with Satan.

(Another of the Ten Commandments violated, indeed!)

Which ended all fellowship between God and Adam.