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  • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Are you shifting the goal posts to avoid admitting that a person's belief is subject to a person's will?
    No I am not. All you are doing is trying to change the subject in the hope that no one will see that you had no answer to the following verses which demonstrate that a person's blessing from God are not based on a person's will:

    "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy"
    (Ro.9:16).

    "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"
    (Jn.1:11-13).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
      No I am not. All you are doing is trying to change the subject in the hope that no one will see that you had no answer to the following verses which demonstrate that a person's blessing from God are not based on a person's will:
      Here is where I came in.
      Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
      Yes. I accept that upon our free will expression of faith, our unproven hope in HIS word, we were set apart by the Holy Spirit, a setting apart called election in ordinary theology.
      Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
      Believing anything is not a function of a person's "will."
      You made the unsupportable statement that a person't belief is not a function of a person's will, now you refuse to address your error.


      Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
      the following verses ... demonstrate that a person's blessing from God are not based on a person's will:

      "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy"
      (Ro.9:16).
      You are taking that verse out of context.

      Romans 9:13-16
      13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
      14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
      15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
      16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


      Paul makes reference to what God said to Moses.

      Exodus 33:17-19
      17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
      18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
      19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.


      God is doing something special for Moses because Moses has found grace in God's eyes.
      God said He would proclaim the name of the Lord before Moses and make His goodness pass before Moses.
      That happened just a few verses later:

      Exodus 34:5-7
      5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
      6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
      7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.


      Moses recounted this visitation by God to the children of Israel when they had reached the Jordan river and explained who the thousands are that God said He would have mercy upon.

      Deuteronomy 5:9-10
      9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
      10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.


      Moses stated that the ONLY people God shows His mercy upon are those that love Him and keep His commandments.

      Free-will is primarily the ability to choose whether you will love God and the ability to choose whether you will obey God.
      Do not make the mistake of thinking nothing you do can affect whether God will show you mercy or not.
      Learn to read what is written.

      _____
      The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
      ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
        That refers to the "mystery of Christ" but "the mystery" which Paul makes reference concerns the purpose of the Cross, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).
        And this mystery that was hid in Christ you bestow, in other threads, to believers before Christ gave His life at the cross to reveal the mystery. In your own words and the scripture you just referenced says it was not possible. Eternal life in Christ was ushered in at the cross and not possible to receive before. If it was possible to receive before then there would have been no need for the cross. If we must believe the mystery in Christ how did those before the mystery was revealed receive the power of it?

        In essence you are saying they before the cross did not have to believe the mystery but after the cross it has to be believed. How is that just? Does God respect persons? Does God give blessings concerning belief to one over another, I think not.

        You then are liken to a calvinist which holds God is a respector of person by choosing one over another without regard to choice concerning the finished gospel of the cross of Christ.

        Both believe-isms hold things in common. One common is grating the power of the cross without/before Christ accomplished His sacrificial work. The second common is excusing and condemning when only God has he power to do so.

        The mystery is in Christ and even Christ did not come to condemn, He came to save by displaying His love for us in a mystery revealed and not know before.

        Righteousness is another problem. There is none righteous, no not one. No one before the cross can declare it or any after in reality. One can choose the righteousness of Christ, and if they do, then they should declare righteousness is His. Before the cross God said certain men were righteous but it was their righteousness by their works or/and their faith, it was their righteousness plain as day. If if was their righteousness and if words have meaning it is self righteousness. Where man is concerned after the cross, now, there is none righteous, no not one.

        Anything that a man can do and I mean anything, now, is filthy rags because the mystery revealed at the cross is the righteous One. Rituals like water baptism, circumcision of the flesh, etc.. have been displaced and are operations of God in Christ not the work of men. The power of God displayed by believers now is to preach Christ crucified and give to God through the sacrifice of Christ what is His. It's the righteousness of Christ, the faith of Christ, the works of Christ, etc..for all that choose it.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
          Believing anything is not a function of a person's "will."
          If we have a choice to believe YHWH is our Creator GOD or to reject this belief and believe HE is a false god, then yes, our belief is a function of our will, our ability to choose.
          I Champion GOD’s holiness:
          - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
          - All evil is creature-created.

          I Champion Our Free will:
          - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
            Righteousness is another problem. There is none righteous, no not one. No one before the cross can declare it or any after in reality.
            If there really is none righteous, no not one, then the Bible is filled with false statements about righteous people.
            If the entire Bible is true, then that verse must have suffered from being misinterpreted and misused.

            Are There Really None Righteous?

            The none righteous not even one phrase has been horrible misused and the image of a Christian has been distorted thereby.
            the frequently quoted verse from Romans 3:10 which states that there is no one that is righteous. That verse reads:
            As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one ....
            Because this verse is so universally known among those who profess salvation and claim to believe the Bible, it is important to examine this carefully.

            it becomes apparent that there are numerous examples of actual named people who were righteous. Please note the following Scriptures:
            This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. (Gen 6:9)
            Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. (Mat 1:19)
            Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. (Luke 2:25)
            And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (Mat 23:35)
            and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard) (2 Pet 2:7,8)

            one must repent (turn from his sins) or he will perish. Hence, the faith in Jesus that is needed to be considered righteous is a trusting and submitting faith - one that obeys. Furthermore, it is imperative to endure to the very end of your life to enter God's paradise kingdom (Mt. 10:22; Heb. 3:14 and Rev. 2:10,11). If you are a real Christian now, you are righteous, but sin can change that righteous standing and bring you to your spiritual death, just like it did for both Adam and Eve.

            Learn to read what is written.

            _____
            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
              If we have a choice to believe YHWH is our Creator GOD or to reject this belief and believe HE is a false god, then yes, our belief is a function of our will, our ability to choose.
              That makes no sense--"a choice to believe."

              The fact is that a person either believes the gospel or he doesn't. Here is the description of Biblical faith:

              "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"
              (Heb.11:1).

              The gospel itself provides "evidence" that it is true because it comes not in word only, but in power and with much assurance and in the Holy Spirit (1 Thess.1:5). Since the gospel is absolutely true and comes with the "evidence" that it is true then all people should believe it. The only people who hear it and do not believe it are those who "resist the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51).

              A person cannot "will" himself to believe that five plus five is anything but ten because the "evidence" he possesses tells him that five plus five is ten. A person believes what he believes because of the "evidence" which he has at his disposal and not because he just decides one day to "will" himself to believe that something is true despite the fact that he has no evidence to indicate that it is true.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cntrysner View Post
                Eternal life in Christ was ushered in at the cross and not possible to receive before.
                You just refuse to believe what the Lord Jesus said in the following verse before the Cross:

                "Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life"
                (Jn.6:47).

                Please tell me why I should believe you since the Savior Himself directly contradicts your assertion.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                  You made the unsupportable statement that a person't belief is not a function of a person's will, now you refuse to address your error.
                  In the following passage we can see that being "born of God" is not dependent on a person's will:

                  "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).

                  A person's new birth has nothing to do with a person's "will" but at the same time that person is born again by believing the word of truth, the gospel:

                  "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).

                  "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"
                  (1 Pet.1:23,25).

                  A person is born of God when he believes the gospel and the Apostle John tells us that man's "will" plays no part in being born again. Therefore, that proves that believing is not a function of the will.
                  Last edited by Jerry Shugart; September 26th, 2019, 11:03 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Greetings again Jerry and “heir”,
                    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                    The Apostles were commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel the gospel to every creature, thus teaching all nations, not just to the Jews:
                    Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                    Then why didn't they?
                    We do have the following information concerning James, Cephas (Peter), and John:
                    Galatians 2:7–9 (KJV): 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
                    I suggest that this excluded Peter and John from preaching to the Gentiles and we have the record concerning Philip with the Samaritans and the Eunuch and peter with Cornelius and his company. We have no record of the work of the other 10 Apostles and they could have preached to other Gentile areas and audiences not covered by Paul. John seems to have outlived both Paul and Peter and it seems that he was active with the Seven Congregations of Asia Minor, and these included Gentiles.
                    Originally posted by heir View Post
                    As with everything with God, there was an order for them. The apostles were under this command of the Lord:
                    Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
                    Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
                    until
                    Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
                    The "go ye therefore", when they will go and teach all nations is when the Lord returns (second coming) with "all power"...
                    Although the above needs more explanation, I do not accept that Jesus is speaking about the Apostles’ preaching after the Second Coming.
                    As to now (nothing to do with what was and will go on in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV) given the dispensation of the grace of God to us (Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV). We are partakers by the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 3:6 KJV) and our only baptism is identification BY ONE SPIRIT IN ONE BODY (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV). Where we are concerned, the Spirit is the baptizer, not Jesus "with the Holy Ghost", by man (like John the Baptist or Peter) in water (a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins), or fire as in other places in the Bible. Our baptism is unique to just the church, which is His Body!
                    I cannot accept that there are two Gospels here and the rest of your Post. I am not interested in trying to unravel your obscure reasoning.

                    Kind regards
                    Trevor

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                      I suggest that this excluded Peter and John from preaching to the Gentiles and we have the record concerning Philip with the Samaritans and the Eunuch and peter with Cornelius and his company. We have no record of the work of the other 10 Apostles and they could have preached to other Gentile areas and audiences not covered by Paul. John seems to have outlived both Paul and Peter and it seems that he was active with the Seven Congregations of Asia Minor, and these included Gentiles.
                      The Twelve certainly understood from the OT prophecies that the Gentiles would be brought to the knowledge of the Lord Jesus as a result of the agency of the nation of Israel:

                      "Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor"
                      (Isa.55:3,5).

                      According to prophecy Gentiles will saved as a result to the agency of the nation of Israel:
                      "And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).

                      Before the disciples would go to the Gentiles they were waiting for Israel to repent and be converted. Since the nation had not repented and turned to the LORD then when the disciples were scattered upon the persecution of Stephen they preached the gospel only to the Jews:

                      "Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only"
                      (Acts 11:19).

                      None of the Apostles who were originally given the commission to preach the gospel to every creature ever went to the Gentiles except for Peter, and even then it took a special revelation from the LORD before he would go to a Gentile.

                      That paved the way for God to convert Paul and he was made the apostle of the Gentiles and a dispensation which had not been revealed in the OT began when Paul began to preach the "gospel of grace" to the Gentiles at Acts 13:46-48.

                      The gospel which was preached to the whole world was the "gospel of grace" (Col.1:5-6) and not the "gospel of the kingdom" (Mt.24:14).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                        The gospel which was preached to the whole world was the "gospel of grace" (Col.1:5-6) and not the "gospel of the kingdom" (Mt.24:14).
                        This should be so obvious and yet Churchianity teaches that "it's all the same".
                        All of my ancestors are human.
                        Originally posted by Squeaky
                        That explains why your an idiot.
                        Originally posted by God's Truth
                        Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                        Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                        1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                        (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                        Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
                          Greetings again Jerry and “heir”, We do have the following information concerning James, Cephas (Peter), and John:
                          Galatians 2:7–9 (KJV): 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
                          I suggest that this excluded Peter and John from preaching to the Gentiles and we have the record concerning Philip with the Samaritans and the Eunuch and peter with Cornelius and his company. We have no record of the work of the other 10 Apostles and they could have preached to other Gentile areas and audiences not covered by Paul. John seems to have outlived both Paul and Peter and it seems that he was active with the Seven Congregations of Asia Minor, and these included Gentiles.
                          Although the above needs more explanation, I do not accept that Jesus is speaking about the Apostles’ preaching after the Second Coming.
                          Please don't lump me in with Jerry. I take the Lord's time to respond with you and I would expect the same toward me. As to the bolded above: Matthew 10:23 KJV
                          I cannot accept that there are two Gospels here and the rest of your Post. I am not interested in trying to unravel your obscure reasoning.

                          Kind regards
                          Trevor
                          Here are two gospels in one verse (Galatians 2:7 KJV). There are several gospels in the Bible. Gospel=good news. All of those gospels in the Bible cannot be the good news of your salvation, but one is. What is it? What is the gospel of YOUR salvation? If you respond correctly and I can show by the scriptures that it was before a mystery, will you believe it?
                          2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

                          Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                            Here is the description of Biblical faith:

                            "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"
                            (Heb.11:1).
                            That is describing how the faith of a believer is shown by the acts of the believer and those acts provide evidence of God to those who do not know Him.
                            Look at the rest of the chapter.
                            Hebrews 11 is all about the acts of various believers in the Old Testament.
                            Learn to read what is written.

                            _____
                            The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                            ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              A person cannot "will" himself to believe that five plus five is anything but ten because the "evidence" he possesses tells him that five plus five is ten.
                              A person can will himself to believe something different if the person changes his frame of reference
                              5 + 5 = 10 in base 10
                              5 + 5 = a in base 16
                              5 + 5 = 12 in base 8

                              Each of these is true and provable.
                              Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                              A person believes what he believes because of the "evidence" which he has at his disposal and not because he just decides one day to "will" himself to believe that something is true despite the fact that he has no evidence to indicate that it is true.
                              That is why the evidence provided by the acts of believers is so important.

                              Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.
                              ~St. Francis of Assisi

                              Learn to read what is written.

                              _____
                              The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
                              ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by genuineoriginal View Post
                                That is why the evidence provided by the acts of believers is so important.

                                Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary.
                                ~St. Francis of Assisi

                                That is just dumb.
                                All of my ancestors are human.
                                Originally posted by Squeaky
                                That explains why your an idiot.
                                Originally posted by God's Truth
                                Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                                Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                                1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                                (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                                Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                                Comment

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