Is Baptism a requirement for Salvation

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 5:1-2 explains how men fulfill the requirement of belief in Christ as requirement in Acts 16:30-31 . . . only "through our Lord Jesus Christ."

That is not what Romans 5:1-2 says:

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God" (Ro.5:1-2).​

This is not saying that people receive faith from the Lord Jesus. Instead, this is saying that it is through the Lord Jesus that we have this grace of being justified by faith and this grace was made possible by the Cross. And it only because of the Lord Jesus' death upon the Cross that anyone has access into this grace and the benefits of that grace are obtained by faith.

Not one aspect of Justification ("salvation from God") is conditional upon any action of the sinner saved.

According to you the sinner plays no part in his salvation (not conditional upon any action of the sinner) but the Scriptures tell another story:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

No, Peter used the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus to prove that Jesus is the Christ and the LORD (God) (Acts 2:29-36).

Acts 2:33–36 (KJV): 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Peter is not stating that Jesus is the LORD (God), but he quotes and expounds Psalm 110:1 where The LORD (Yahweh), that is God the Father is distinguished from David’s Lord (Adon), that is our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Even the KJV distinguishes these two different Hebrew words LORD and Lord in Psalm 110:1 by using capitals for Yahweh only and surprisingly carries this over into the NT in Acts 2:34. Peter preaches salvation by means of the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is equivalent to justification by faith, that is forgiveness of sins, that is at least a major component of the word grace,

Do you think that the "gospel" of Luke 9:6 is the "gospel of grace" even though at the time when the Twelve were preaching that gospel they didn't even know the Lord Jesus was going to die?

This was still the One Gospel, but after the death and resurrection of Jesus this additional detail was elaborated, even though it was contained in Genesis 22, Isaiah 53, Psalm 16 and elsewhere. The Gospel preached before the death and resurrection would include forgiveness of sins, similar to that preached to Abraham and forgiveness of sins is a major component of grace. Thus the Gospel of the Kingdom became the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name. The speeches in Acts 2 and Acts 3 explain some of the additional detail of salvation by means of the Name. The Kingdom component is the same.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Peter is not stating that Jesus is the LORD (God), but he quotes and expounds Psalm 110:1 where The LORD (Yahweh), that is God the Father is distinguished from David’s Lord (Adon), that is our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Dr. Stanley D. Toussaint, Senior Professor Emeritus of Bible Exposition at Dallas Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on Acts 2:36:

"Here is the conclusion to Peter's sermon. The noun 'Lord', referring to 'Christ', probably is a reference to Yahweh. The same word 'kyrios' is used of 'God' in verses 21, 34, and 39 (cf. Phil. 2:9). This is a strong affirmation of Christ's deity" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, ed. Walvoord & Zuck, [ChariotVictor Publishing, 1983], 359).​

Here is a translation of the verse from the Aramaic Bible in Plain English"

“Let therefore the whole house of Israel know truly, God has made this Yeshua, LORD JEHOVAH and The Messiah, whom you had crucified” (Acts 2:36).​

This was still the One Gospel, but after the death and resurrection of Jesus this additional detail was elaborated...

So even though in early acts people were saved by believing a gospel which did not declare that Christ died for our sins that gospel was the same gospel which Paul called "the preaching of the Cross""?

To you the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is the same "good news" which declares that Christ died for our sins!

That makes absolutely no sense. Besides that, not long after Paul was converted on the Damascus road he preached the following message to the Jews:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.....proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

At that time Paul had not yet received the gospel which he was to preach among the Gentiles. He wrote the following:

"But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).​

When Paul realized on the Damascus road that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. That can only mean that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period.

 

[Nang]

According to you the sinner plays no part in his salvation (not conditional upon any action of the sinner)

Right. What I say and what the Bible teaches . . .

but the Scriptures tell another story:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Do sinners inherently possess the same powers of God?

Hardly.



The power to save resides in the Gospel (Sola Scriptura) of Christ alone (Solus Christus) and only the resurrection (regenerating) power of grace applied by the Holy Spirit of Christ (John 3:3 Sola Gratia), can raise dead sinners to new life . . implanting belief in and providing them witness to, that very resurrection power in their hearts, minds, will which produces new spiritual lives. Sola Fide and Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[Cntrysner]

Right. What I say and what the Bible teaches . . .




Do sinners inherently possess the same powers of God?

Hardly.



The power to save resides in the Gospel (Sola Scriptura) of Christ alone (Solus Christus) and only the resurrection (regenerating) power of grace applied by the Holy Spirit of Christ (John 3:3 Sola Gratia), can raise dead sinners to new life . . implanting belief in and providing them witness to, that very resurrection power in their hearts, minds, will which produces new spiritual lives. Sola Fide and Soli Deo Gloria!

Give us scripture where it says that man does not choose to believe the gospel.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

implanting belief in and providing them witness to, that very resurrection power in their hearts, minds, will which produces new spiritual lives. Sola Fide and Soli Deo Gloria!

You make the gospel powerless to save those who are spiritually dead even though it comes in power and with much assurance and in the Holy Spirit:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance" (1 Thess.1:5).​

That "much assurance" which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit provides the "evidence" that the gospel is true and that is why all those who do not "resist the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51) believe the gospel. And the Scriptures reveal that one's faith is based on "evidence":

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

According to your ideas even though the gospel comes in power and much assurance and in the Holy Spirit and gives the "evidence" that the gospel is true in your teaching the gospel is impotent to give spiritual life to anyone. Even though we are told that "it is the Spirit which gives life" and the Lord Jesus said that His "words are Spirit and they are life" (Jn.6:63) you say that a person must first be alive spiritually in order that he can believe the gospel.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

Dr. Stanley D. Toussaint, Senior Professor Emeritus of Bible Exposition at Dallas Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on Acts 2:36:

"Here is the conclusion to Peter's sermon. The noun 'Lord', referring to 'Christ', probably is a reference to Yahweh. The same word 'kyrios' is used of 'God' in verses 21, 34, and 39 (cf. Phil. 2:9). This is a strong affirmation of Christ's deity" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, ed. Walvoord & Zuck, [ChariotVictor Publishing, 1983], 359).​

Here is a translation of the verse from the Aramaic Bible in Plain English"

“Let therefore the whole house of Israel know truly, God has made this Yeshua, LORD JEHOVAH and The Messiah, whom you had crucified” (Acts 2:36).​

Both of the above ignore the simple clear distinction between the two Hebrew words translated as Lord in English. Both of the above also ignore that Peter is expounding Psalm 110:1 where Yahweh God the Father invites David’s Lord to sit at His right hand. Peter’s conclusion is:
Acts 2:33–36 (KJV): 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Philippians 2:9 is a different context and is also an important reference. Paul concludes that to bow the knee to Jesus as Lord is to the glory of God the Father. In Acts 2 and Philippians 2, it is God the Father that exalts His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

So even though in early acts people were saved by believing a gospel which did not declare that Christ died for our sins that gospel was the same gospel which Paul called "the preaching of the Cross""?
To you the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is the same "good news" which declares that Christ died for our sins! That makes absolutely no sense.

Peter in Acts 2 is doing exactly that, he is preaching that Christ died and rose again for the forgiveness of their sins:
Acts 2:37–41 (KJV): 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Besides that, not long after Paul was converted on the Damascus road he preached the following message to the Jews:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.....proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

At that time Paul had not yet received the gospel which he was to preach among the Gentiles. He wrote the following:

"But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).​

When Paul realized on the Damascus road that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. That can only mean that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period.

Paul is only answering the accusation that he learnt the Gospel from the other Apostles. There are not two different Gospels in The Acts.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Peter in Acts 2 is doing exactly that, he is preaching that Christ died and rose again for the forgiveness of their sins:

The verses you quoted will be searched in vain for Peter telling the Jews on the day of Pentecost that Christ died for their sins.

Paul is only answering the accusation that he learnt the Gospel from the other Apostles.

Paul was with other Apostles while they preached a gospel together(Acts 9:27-29). But according to you Paul didn't know anything about the gospel the other Apostles were preaching.

We must throw our reason to the wind to think that the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that believing that message alone brought salvation is the same "good news" that Christ died for our sins and believing that message alone saves.

You must believe that people were being saved by just parts of the "good news" and that just one half of the good news saves.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I can copy and paste too...

Squeaky does it better.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If someone took your water baptism rite away from you and told you it was mere hogwash how would you feel about it?

The rite does not belong to me, it is from God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

The verses you quoted will be searched in vain for Peter telling the Jews on the day of Pentecost that Christ died for their sins.
Paul was with other Apostles while they preached a gospel together(Acts 9:27-29). But according to you Paul didn't know anything about the gospel the other Apostles were preaching.
We must throw our reason to the wind to think that the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that believing that message alone brought salvation is the same "good news" that Christ died for our sins and believing that message alone saves.
You must believe that people were being saved by just parts of the "good news" and that just one half of the good news saves.

We seem to be going over the same ground again. Abraham believed and was justified by faith before the actual events of the death and resurrection of Jesus, and before the full elaboration of the Gospel after the events of the death and resurrection of Jesus. Paul uses his example in support of the Gospel that he preached to both Jew and Gentile in Romans 1:1-4,16-17 and Romans 3:21-26:
Romans 4:1–3 (KJV): 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was justified by faith, that is he was saved and his sins forgiven when he believed concerning the promised seed:
Genesis 15:4–6 (KJV): 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Paul further elaborates this process using Abraham as the example, but he does not stay at this earlier event, but speaks of the development of Abraham’s faith near to the time when Isaac was to be born. Yet here is more detail concerning the Gospel, but the same principle applies. Paul states that this is another demonstration that Abraham is justified by faith:
Romans 4:17–25 (KJV): 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

It is God’s prerogative to decide when he justifies an individual believer. God decides the quality and quantity of faith required. He knows our hearts, whether we have an affectionate belief of the One Gospel and whether this faith brings forth fruit and a way of life that is pleasing to God. Abraham is set forth as an important example.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Greetings again Jerry, We seem to be going over the same ground again.

You said that on the day of Pentecost that Peter preached that Christ died for our sins.

WhenmI asked you where he said that you did not answer.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

You said that on the day of Pentecost that Peter preached that Christ died for our sins.
When I asked you where he said that you did not answer.

Peter accuses them as a nation and hence as part of the nation that they individually had crucified Jesus and were thus guilty of his death.
Acts 2:22–24, 36 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Thus together with their many individual sins, they were guilty of this greatest of all sins, they had taken Jesus, and by wicked hands had crucified and slain him.

Their reaction to this accusation is revealed in the following and Peter clearly states what they needed to do to obtain forgiveness or remission of sins:
Acts 2:37–38 (KJV): 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Here is a clear indication that they would receive remission of sins when they repented and were baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Peter also speaks of salvation through the Name of Jesus in his next speech, and again it centres upon the death and resurrection of Jesus, and again Peter speaks of remission or blotting out of their sins:
Acts 3:13–21 (KJV): 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Again by faith in the Name of Jesus they will obtain remission of sins.

Peter elaborates what is represented by the Name of Jesus and that salvation is by means of the Name of Jesus Christ:
Acts 4:8–12 (KJV): 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You never quoted Peter saying that Christ died for our sins on the day of Pentecost.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

You never quoted Peter saying that Christ died for our sins on the day of Pentecost.

I agree, not those exact words, but certainly Jesus did die for the sins of Peter’s audience and for our sins. Please first consider the following:
Hebrews 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 7:26–27 (KJV): 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Are you suggesting that Peter did not understand that the death and resurrection of Jesus purged the sins of those he addressed, or that Jesus offered up himself for the people's sins? Possibly another view, you may claim that Jesus’ death and resurrection did not actually purge the sins of Peter’s audience or that Jesus only offered himself for those who Paul preached to and afterwards.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Right Divider]

You never quoted Peter saying that Christ died for our sins on the day of Pentecost.

I have challenged many here to do the same. The only "comeback" is usually something like "well... he mentions the cross".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you suggesting that Peter did not understand that the death and resurrection of Jesus purged the sins of those he addressed, or that Jesus offered up himself for the people's sins? Possibly another view, you may claim that Jesus’ death and resurrection did not actually purge the sins of Peter’s audience or that Jesus only offered himself for those who Paul preached to and afterwards.

I am saying that Peter was not preaching the "gospel of grace" on the day of Pentecost, the gospel which declares that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

That's the gospel which Paul said had gone out unto the world and those who believed "knew the grace of God in truth" (Col.1:6).

As I said before, not long after Paul was converted on the Damascus road he preached the following message to the Jews:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.....proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

At that time Paul had not yet received the gospel which he was to preach among the Gentiles. He wrote the following:

"But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus" (Gal.1:15-17).​

When Paul realized on the Damascus road that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, he immediately went to Damascus (Acts 9:6-8). But when he received the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles he went immediately into Arabia. That can only mean that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period.

To which you replied:

Paul is only answering the accusation that he learnt the Gospel from the other Apostles.

To that remark I said the following:

Paul was with other Apostles while they preached a gospel together (Acts 9:27-29). But according to you Paul didn't know anything about the gospel the other Apostles were preaching.​

You offered no response to that. I don't think that you have offered a reasonable answer to the facts revealed at Galatians 1:15-17.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You never quoted Peter saying that Christ died for our sins on the day of Pentecost.

Christ died on Passover, not on Pentecost.

 

[Right Divider]

Christ died on Passover, not on Pentecost.

Jerry was talking about when Peter was preaching at Pentecost.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I am saying that Peter was not preaching the "gospel of grace" on the day of Pentecost, the gospel which declares that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

If Paul is adding to the gospel that the eleven preached, then you should be wary about accepting Paul's additions, not claim that the eleven were wrong.