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  • betsy123
    replied
    Originally posted by Lon View Post
    It makes sense, but, as a reminder, I don't think 'spanking' but 'correction and training' is more the goal. As I've also said, however, I've met plenty of people that believe they needed a spanking once or twice. For me, the discussion of this is very important. Some will spank, some will not. Hopefully all 'train a child in the way they should go, and when they are older, they will not depart.'
    The child grew up to be a very nice lady.
    One day (in her teens), she knocked on my door for a visit! She also has good relationship with her mom.

    Leave a comment:


  • ok doser
    replied
    Originally posted by Lon View Post
    1 Corinthians 10:23
    oh Lon

    observe:

    Originally posted by Squeaky View Post
    Your statement that "all things are permissible" is blasphemy.

    I said
    lololol your an idiot

    Leave a comment:


  • Lon
    replied
    Originally posted by betsy123 View Post
    Lol. There is a continuation to that story about that particular child. You see, i was running a daycare. The next day, it was dad who pickled her up. She was the last child to be picked up. She started doing the same thing to her dada.
    I could see that dad was uncomfortable with me being there as a witness (thus he wasn't doing anything to rectify that behaviour).
    Finally I said....."I'm gong out. I see nothing. I hear nothing."
    I left them... I heard the child say, "Ow, you hit me."
    That was the end of that.

    Years later, I heard the marriage ended in divorce. The child - an adoloscent at the time - had chosen to go with dad.
    It makes sense, but, as a reminder, I don't think 'spanking' but 'correction and training' is more the goal. As I've also said, however, I've met plenty of people that believe they needed a spanking once or twice. For me, the discussion of this is very important. Some will spank, some will not. Hopefully all 'train a child in the way they should go, and when they are older, they will not depart.'

    Leave a comment:


  • Lon
    replied
    Originally posted by Squeaky View Post
    I said
    Your statement that "all things are permissible" is blasphemy.
    1 Corinthians 10:23

    Leave a comment:


  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
    Now how does that fit in with innocents of death row being put to death.
    Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
    For me one innocent put to death is one too many.
    Was Jesus' death "one too many"?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bradley D
    replied
    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
    Jesus was put to death an innocent man.
    That is right. God sent Jesus to teach and to be a sacrifice for our sins. Jesus knew that from the beginning of ministry. Now how does that fit in with innocents of death row being put to death.

    Leave a comment:


  • Squeaky
    replied
    Originally posted by Lon View Post
    Tough thread, btw, trying to follow: Death Penalty, Divorce, and Child-rearing. Seems to be a difference between 'letter of the law' vs. "spirit of it?" I'm not sure Christians need be too literal with O.T. instruction specifically because we are under grace and 'all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable." I'm not advocating a disregard for God's laws, but rather the part that reminds us that all the laws and prophets are based on loving one another and God.
    Matthew 22:40
    I said
    Your statement that "all things are permissible" is blasphemy. Grace is the law of Christ.

    JESUS COMMANDMENTS (RULE, LAW, ORDER)
    John 15:10
    10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
    John 14:21
    21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
    Matt 4:4
    4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
    Matt 28:20
    20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
    Matt 24:35
    35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
    I Jn 2:3
    3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
    I Jn 5:3
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
    II Th 3:4
    4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, both that you do and will do the things we command you.
    John 15:14
    14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
    1 Tim 4:11
    11 These things command and teach.
    1 Cor 7:10
    10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.
    Matt 28:20
    20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
    Heb 13:8
    8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
    Phile 1:21
    21 Having confidence in your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say.
    Matt 5:20
    20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
    John 15:10
    10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
    Acts 17:30
    30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
    II Jn 1:5-6
    5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another.
    6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
    Matt 19:17-21
    17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
    18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said," 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,'
    19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
    20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"
    21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
    Rom 13:9
    9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
    Matt 22:37-40
    37 Jesus said to him," 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
    38 "This is the first and great commandment.
    39 "And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
    40 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
    John 13:34-38
    34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
    35 "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
    36 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered him, "Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward."
    37 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake."
    38 Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times.
    Matt 5:19
    19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    I Jn 4:20-21
    20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
    21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
    John 14:21
    21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
    John 15:17
    17 "These things I command you, that you love one another.
    I Jn 2:4
    4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    I Jn 2:3
    3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
    James 1:12-15
    12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
    13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
    14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
    15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
    James 1:22-24
    22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
    23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
    24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
    James 1:25
    25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
    James 2:17
    17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    James 2:20
    20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
    James 2:26
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    1 Tim 6:12
    12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
    1 Tim 6:14-16
    14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
    15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
    James 2:12
    12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
    Rom 8:2
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
    Rom 8:1
    1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
    I Jn 5:3-4
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
    4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.
    Acts 1:1-3
    1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
    2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
    3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
    I Jn 3:20-24
    20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
    21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.
    22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
    23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
    24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
    (NKJ)
    xxxxxThe old testament had commandments. And the new testament has commandments. In the old testament the way to please God was to obey His commandments. In the new testament the way to please God is to obey Jesus commandments. And Jesus commands us to crucify our emotions and feelings. Just to get in the Spirit we, not Him, but we must crucify our emotions and feelings. Have you done that yet? And obey all the commandments in the new testament

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  • Stripe
    replied
    Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
    One innocent put to death is one too many.
    Jesus was put to death an innocent man.

    Leave a comment:


  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
    The problem with me is that my Dad drank and often beat me with the belt out of anger. I believe one should use the "rod" in accordance with God's Love.

    Death Penalty. Many people have been found innocent while on death row. For me one innocent put to death is one too many.
    You're biased toward protecting the innocent over punishing the guilty, when you should be equally concerned, as God is, with both. Doing one over the other, or killing the innocent or sparing the guilty is profaning God.

    And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?” - Ezekiel 13:19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV
    Last edited by JudgeRightly; June 14th, 2019, 12:55 AM.

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  • Bradley D
    replied
    The problem with me is that my Dad drank and often beat me with the belt out of anger. I believe one should use the "rod" in accordance with God's Love.

    Death Penalty. Many people have been found innocent while on death row. For me one innocent put to death is one too many.

    Leave a comment:


  • betsy123
    replied
    Originally posted by Lon View Post
    Had to reread what you mean. As with Betsy above, the response was positive and thus I believe love covers and heals. As with her story of the child slapping the mother, there is already a 'pain' problem and perhaps a slap back could cause an immediate stop and desist. Oddly, this reminds me of "Black Lives Matter" discussion where we are discussing whether violent protest is ever appropriate. To me? Very similar if not the same discussion. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend" doesn't have to mean a whip by any necessity and seems to be more about discipline in whatever form. The Apostle Paul talks of an athlete buffeting his/her body. It is in this light that I see the Proverbs 23:13

    I like and appreciate Nikolai's comments:

    I too, was spanked often as a child and I agree it did me little harm. Violence happening around me did an incredible amount of worse damage. I've made no secret I suffer PTSD. My father was a murderer and tried to murder each of us kids (thankfully in a drunken stupor or he would have succeeded). That's wholly different than my mother spanking me, often. Did I need it? No, not that often, but it did teach me respect and what I was going to face in the rest of the world.

    I yet believe those kids not spanked is perfectly fine, it is rather discipline that leads to self-discipline that is the goal.

    Some data I've read supports Town's data, and others are inconclusive.

    -Lon
    Lol. There is a continuation to that story about that particular child. You see, i was running a daycare. The next day, it was dad who pickled her up. She was the last child to be picked up. She started doing the same thing to her dada.
    I could see that dad was uncomfortable with me being there as a witness (thus he wasn't doing anything to rectify that behaviour).
    Finally I said....."I'm gong out. I see nothing. I hear nothing."
    I left them... I heard the child say, "Ow, you hit me."
    That was the end of that.

    Years later, I heard the marriage ended in divorce. The child - an adoloscent at the time - had chosen to go with dad.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stripe
    replied
    Originally posted by Lon View Post
    There was a man, convicted of theft who became a Christian. While waiting trial, he began repaying all those he'd stolen from as well as working off debt to those who would allow it. The judge remanded him to time-served and continued service to those he yet had to pay. I believe it was Oklahoma law that countered the judge and put the man in prison for ten years.

    My question: to what purpose? Can the criminal justice system be wrong at times? I'm not sure if we mean 'grace' at that point, however.
    Is the three-strikes, grace? Or justice?
    There's almost nothing that our justice system gets right.

    I agree with you, but with the 'letter of the law' Proverbs says if we spare the rod, we spoil.
    I don't think it's saying that kids must be spanked.

    There are plenty of kids who can grow up without needing a single spanking.

    Also, there are plenty of situations where corporal punishment might be used unnecessarily.

    I think we live in a society that:
    A) Has no idea how to do it properly, and
    B) Is terrified to learn because liberals want to put people in jail for practicing good discipline.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lon
    replied
    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
    Men are not permitted to ignore the letter of the law in the name of the spirit.

    Unfortunately, those who call for adherence to a "spirit of the law" tend to be selling humanism.
    Yes. I advocate it only insomuch as scripture does i.e. the Sabbath was made for man, and not the other way around.
    Our liberty in Christ Jesus our Lord, is not to be used against our Lord. Your warning/concern is well received and thank you.

    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
    What they need to do is clearly set out what they mean by "spirit."

    All this has no place in a criminal justice system.
    There was a man, convicted of theft who became a Christian. While waiting trial, he began repaying all those he'd stolen from as well as working off debt to those who would allow it. The judge remanded him to time-served and continued service to those he yet had to pay. I believe it was Oklahoma law that countered the judge and put the man in prison for ten years.

    My question: to what purpose? Can the criminal justice system be wrong at times? I'm not sure if we mean 'grace' at that point, however.
    Is the three-strikes, grace? Or justice?

    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
    You can wonder about the motivation behind people's ideas all you like, that's not going to change the facts: The death penalty (and corporal punishment) were put in place by God and never done away with.
    This thread is more about 'us' acting in grace. When it comes to the death penalty, I think Nikolai said it well, that if we allow a murder to go free, then we cheapen life as a society. I've also added that family has a right to demand a tooth for a tooth. I'm just saying I'm not for the death penalty. It is a personal stance, I support people who support the penalty while not embracing it for me.
    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
    Perhaps those who say the death penalty is immoral do have their heart in the right place. However, recognizing this does nothing to advance the conversation.
    At this time, this law is done state by state, so I think it always a helpful conversation as we are involved in some of the law decisions. I appreciate your input.

    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
    Some kids never need it.
    I agree with you, but with the 'letter of the law' Proverbs says if we spare the rod, we spoil.

    It could be interpretation but it literally says if we beat them, they will not die. Looking at kings and the rich, we see discipline problems, and in that light, perhaps there is indication of David's wayward sons in hindsight (Absalom, Absalom). I've heard it said: You can beat the hell out of someone, or love the hell out of them. Perhaps both, but my children also didn't need it. It is a tough subject when trying to follow the intent of the scriptures.



    Originally posted by Stripe View Post
    It's more urgent to obey the law than to know what it is for, but it might be more important to know what it's for than to obey it.
    Again, I'm with you in agreement. Thank you for input here. It isn't one of the easier discussions. Appreciate your thoughtful post. -Lon

    Leave a comment:


  • Stripe
    replied
    Originally posted by Lon View Post
    Seems to be a difference between 'letter of the law' vs. "spirit of it?"
    Men are not permitted to ignore the letter of the law in the name of the spirit.

    Unfortunately, those who call for adherence to a "spirit of the law" tend to be selling humanism.

    What they need to do is clearly set out what they mean by "spirit."

    I'm not sure Christians need be too literal with O.T. instruction specifically because we are under grace and 'all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable." I'm not advocating a disregard for God's laws, but rather the part that reminds us that all the laws and prophets are based on loving one another and God.
    All this has no place in a criminal justice system.

    For me, those who promote the death penalty are loving/safe-keeping society. Those against it, promoting loving people as well. It then becomes a needed discussion of which is most loving of God and man. Marriage laws and child-rearing laws are also based on how best to show love.
    You can wonder about the motivation behind people's ideas all you like, that's not going to change the facts: The death penalty (and corporal punishment) were put in place by God and never done away with.

    Perhaps those who say the death penalty is immoral do have their heart in the right place. However, recognizing this does nothing to advance the conversation.

    Perhaps one size doesn't fit all concerning pain as a correction.
    Some kids never need it.

    We sometimes can get so caught up in the 'rules' that we forget what they ultimately were about or what most specifically they were for.
    It's more urgent to obey the law than to know what it is for, but it might be more important to know what it's for than to obey it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lon
    replied
    Originally posted by annabenedetti View Post
    No, I didn't know about the PTSD, or if I did, somehow I didn't retain that information. I didn't know about your father, either. I'm very sorry to hear these things happened to you.
    Very kind. The grace of God is stronger than the worst abuses and brings incredible healing. The love of the Body of Christ, even when some others in the Body have been harsh, have been incredibly healing as well. Thank you. -Lon

    Leave a comment:

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