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  • #76
    Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

    No, What does Jn 6:44, 65 say ?
    John 6:44 does not destroy the power to choose. You're once again equating drawing/attracting with forcing. The two words that have completely different meanings. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the power to choose. One takes away the power of choice by overwhelming power. The other confirms the power of choice through the ideas of influencing, attracting, etc....

    As verse 44 sets the context for verse 65 as it precedes verse 65, how can verse 65 mean the opposite of verse 44? Are you trying to say that Jesus argued against Himself on a regular basis? That He was notoriously inconsistent and didn't understand that a house divided against itself couldn't stand? It seems to me that the theology you have accepted is very muddled and inconsistent.
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

    “One and God make a majority.”
    ― Frederick Douglass

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

      Sure it does. All men are in a prison of unbelief !
      If all men are in unbelief then that includes those whom Calvinists say are the elect. Well, it does unless you're going to redefine the English language again and say all == some, i.e. all is equal to some and/or all is equal to part. The theology you're promoting leads to great confusion as it contradicts the accepted usage of the English language.

      I also don't see that Romans 11:32 says what you're claiming it says. How does saying that in a world of sin that all men have doubts means no one has a choice to believe when God draws them? That they are locked into a prison of doubt? The wording actually says that God concluded that all men are victims of doubt. The Bible makes it very clear that this is true. Every one of Jesus' disciples had doubts about Him. Every prophet in the OT expressed doubt at one time or another in their lives as prophets. Moses expressed doubt. Abraham expressed doubt. David expressed doubt. Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and the rest all expressed doubt in one way or another. Paul expressed some doubt. I've never seen any human being that didn't express doubts and that includes the entire Christian community which includes Calvinists. So how does verse 32 mean human beings are all in a prison?

      What I see in that verse is that God is acknowledging that we all harbor doubt in one form or another and that it is God's pleasure to have mercy on us and teach us, if we are willing to learn from Him, to resolve our doubts into trust in Him. Wasn't that a part of the mission of Jesus while here on this earth? Didn't his ministry here teach us about the goodness and love of God for fallen humanity? Does not that equal God's mercy towards us and our doubts about Him? Doubts that all of us harbor, if we're honest with ourselves.
      “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
      ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

      “One and God make a majority.”
      ― Frederick Douglass

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

        I gave you the scripture Rom 11:32
        That scripture doesn't say 'prison' nor does it imply 'prison.

        Oh how I love the Word of God!

        Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

          No, What does Jn 6:44, 65 say ?
          Beloved57,

          I have some scripture that goes right along with John 6:44 from both the OT and NT. I think you'll find them both interesting and challenging to your theology.

          Do you call complete control of a person's thinking and choices lovingkindness? I don't. Total control over another person isn't even in the same ballpark as drawing/attracting someone through lovingkindness.

          Jeremiah 31:3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
          Notice that the following passage contradicts your theology. Your concept of God's sovereignty is in conflict with this entire chapter, unless that is, you do not believe that the children of Israel were God's chosen people. Notice especially that God used kindness and love, not overwhelming power in His relationship with Israel and that God's chosen people still walked away from Him.

          Hosea 11:
          1When Israel was a child, I loved him,
          and out of Egypt I called my son.
          2 The more they were called,
          the more they went away;
          they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols.
          3 Yet it was I who taught Ephraim to walk;
          I took them up by their arms,
          but they did not know that I healed them.
          4 I led them with cords of kindness,
          with the bands of love,
          and I became to them as one who eases the yoke on their jaws,
          and I bent down to them and fed them.
          5 They shall not return to the land of Egypt,
          but Assyria shall be their king,
          because they have refused to return to me.
          6 The sword shall rage against their cities,
          consume the bars of their gates,
          and devour them because of their own counsels.

          7 My people are bent on turning away from me,
          and though they call out to the Most High,
          he shall not raise them up at all.
          8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
          How can I hand you over, O Israel?
          How can I make you like Admah?
          How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
          My heart recoils within me;
          my compassion grows warm and tender.
          9 I will not execute my burning anger;
          I will not again destroy Ephraim;
          for I am God and not a man,the Holy One in your midst,
          and I will not come in wrath.
          10 They shall go after the Lord;
          he will roar like a lion;
          when he roars,his children shall come trembling from the west;
          11 they shall come trembling like birds from Egypt,
          and like doves from the land of Assyria,
          and I will return them to their homes, declares the Lord.
          12 Ephraim has surrounded me with lies,
          and the house of Israel with deceit,
          but Judah still walks with Goand is faithful to the Holy One.
          Now notice in the words of Jesus that the Father is seeking people to worship Him. How does that fit into your theology? Why would God be seeking people to worship Him when He has already ordained who is saved and who is lost?

          John 4: 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
          Notice once again that Jesus says when He is lifted up upon the cross that He will draw, i.e. attract, all people to Himself.

          John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
          “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
          ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

          “One and God make a majority.”
          ― Frederick Douglass

          Comment


          • #80
            All Gods Elect and the non elect are by nature spiritually dead, dead in sin Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13. This means that all men naturally are living without spiritual life and alienated from God. Eph 4:18

            Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

            Col 1:21

            And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

            As such we are naturally in spiritual death Rom 8:6

            6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

            All by nature are carnal minded, that cant be helped, even if we are very pious and religous and moral.

            In this state we have no affections or motion towards God Rom 3:11

            11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

            Thats why Jesus says of man naturally Jn 6:44,65

            44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
            and I will raise him up at the last day.

            65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

            Charles Spurgeon !

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              All Gods Elect and the non elect are by nature spiritually dead, dead in sin Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13. This means that all men naturally are living without spiritual life and alienated from God. Eph 4:18

              Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

              Col 1:21

              And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

              As such we are naturally in spiritual death Rom 8:6

              6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

              All by nature are carnal minded, that cant be helped, even if we are very pious and religous and moral.

              In this state we have no affections or motion towards God Rom 3:11

              11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

              Thats why Jesus says of man naturally Jn 6:44,65

              44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
              and I will raise him up at the last day.

              65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


              Exactly Brother !

              Because all men naturally are carnally minded and alienated from the Life of God Eph. 4:18, they are spiritually dead: Having no ability whatsoever to come to Christ because their own will is not free, but in bondage to, and blinded by satan 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

              So their only Hope of coming to Christ is being one that God Discriminately Elected in His Son Eph. 1:4-7 to be a partaker of His Grace Rom. 3:24, and thus being given Spiritual Life John 3:3-6.

              But it is not by meeting any condition or performance on their part by exercising their own will which they imagine to be free. For it's God's Will that controls all others' will Dan. 4:35.
              My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever;
              when shall I be brought in to see His Face? - Psalm 42:2

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Nanja View Post



                Exactly Brother !

                Because all men naturally are carnally minded and alienated from the Life of God Eph. 4:18, they are spiritually dead: Having no ability whatsoever to come to Christ because their own will is not free, but in bondage to, and blinded by satan 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

                So their only Hope of coming to Christ is being one that God Discriminately Elected in His Son Eph. 1:4-7 to be a partaker of His Grace Rom. 3:24, and thus being given Spiritual Life John 3:3-6.

                But it is not by meeting any condition or performance on their part by exercising their own will which they imagine to be free. For it's God's Will that controls all others' will Dan. 4:35.
                Amen Sister!
                "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                Charles Spurgeon !

                Comment


                • #83
                  Go to Ephesians 2:11…Paul says for them to remember that formerly they were Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised”. Paul continues to tell them that they were without God in the world, but now in Christ they are brought near through the blood of Christ.

                  That means ALL now have a chance to be reconciled to God through Jesus who died for the world, it does NOT mean no one had the ABILITY to believe before then. It means they were NOT ALLOWED to come to God before Jesus died on the cross because they were not in the covenant with God, which circumcision of the flesh was the sign. They could have entered the covenant but they chose not to do so.


                  Ephesians 1:3 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,


                  Does not say when God made them believe. It says plainly they heard the message and believed.
                  Oh how I love the Word of God!

                  Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                    they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing
                    So, what you're saying is that
                    • they will not come unless they will,
                    • they will not come unless they can,
                    • they cannot come unless they will,
                    • they cannot come unless they can.

                    No doy.
                    All my ancestors are human.
                    PS: All your ancestors are human.
                    PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by 7djengo7 View Post

                      So, what you're saying is that
                      • they will not come unless they will,
                      • they cannot come unless they will,
                      • that they cannot come unless they can.

                      No doy.
                      Im saying what i said! Duh
                      "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                      preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                      called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                      a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                      Charles Spurgeon !

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                        Im saying what i said! Duh
                        Which is that
                        • they will not come unless they will,
                        • they will not come unless they can,
                        • they cannot come unless they will,
                        • they cannot come unless they can.
                        That's what you said.
                        All my ancestors are human.
                        PS: All your ancestors are human.
                        PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                          Jn 6:44

                          44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

                          No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

                          It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

                          64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

                          65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


                          What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

                          40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

                          Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

                          Ps 110:3

                          3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

                          If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !
                          Hi and in Acts 2:21 it reads , And it will be that ALL , whosoever might call upon the NAME of the Lord will be saved !!

                          Explain it PLEASE ??

                          dan p

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