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  • #61
    Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

    Maybe I see things in the text you dont. I surely cant help that.
    Then show where the text actually says what you say it does. All I see is that you're reading your conclusions into it. That's where what you're seeing in the text comes from because you can't actually prove your point from the text or it's context.

    Here is the text and the context. Now point out where, in this passage of scripture, that it says humanity has no power of choice and that the drawing power of God's love destroys it. If you can't find it, it means you're reading your theology into the text.

    John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
    46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
    47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    48 I am that bread of life.
    49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
    56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
    59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
    60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

    “One and God make a majority.”
    ― Frederick Douglass

    Comment


    • #62
      ffree

      Then show where the text actually says what you say it does.
      I did, you said you dont understand.
      "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
      preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
      called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
      a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

      Charles Spurgeon !

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
        ffree



        I did, you said you dont understand.
        No. That's not what you did. You asserted, without evidence from either the text itself, or from the context surrounding the text, that it says we humans don't have the power of choice. There is nothing in the concept of "drawing" that leads to your conclusion. The concept of "drawing" Jesus used here implies the ability to choose. And all you've done so far is just repeat your conclusion. You've shown no evidence to support it. You didn't even point out in the passage I quoted for you where it is that you draw your conclusions.

        Here is the definition of drawing from Wester's dictionary.

        2. To influence to move or tend toward one's self; to
        exercise an attracting force upon; to call towards itself;
        to attract; hence, to entice; to allure; to induce.
        [1913 Webster]
        The very definition of the word denies the use of overwhelming force which is the determinist's position:
        WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
        determinist
        n 1: anyone who submits to the belief that they are powerless to
        change their destiny [syn: fatalist, determinist,
        predestinarian, predestinationist]
        The only way around the definitions of the words used is to ignore the definitions of the words and create your own definitions. In other words, deny the very meaning of the English language itself. I find that a very odd way to recognize truth. It implies, to me, that you're denying the truth of what Jesus said as you're attempting to change the meaning of the English language to fit your theology.
        “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
        ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

        “One and God make a majority.”
        ― Frederick Douglass

        Comment


        • #64
          feeff

          No. That's not what you did.
          It is what I did, from the text. You stated you dont understand it. Have you read the entire thread ?
          "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
          preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
          called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
          a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

          Charles Spurgeon !

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

            Yes God is able to graff them in not man freewill. Alse all men naturally are imprisoned into unbelief Rom 11:32

            32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
            That is about God bounding all to the same place so He can have mercy ON THEM ALL. Another scripture that disproves your doctrine.
            Oh how I love the Word of God!

            Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

              Maybe I see things in the text you dont. I surely cant help that.
              You can help it. How badly do you want the truth?
              Oh how I love the Word of God!

              Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                feeff



                It is what I did, from the text. You stated you dont understand it. Have you read the entire thread ?
                So, in other words, you just redefined the English language to see what you wanted to see for the definitions of the wording of the passage lend no creedence to your belief.

                I've read John Calvin and been in plenty of debates with Calvinists. And I can't actually find your beliefs in Calvin's writings. He says that those who reject God's love frustrate His purposes. So, I've never understood why Calvinists desire to twist scripture into something it doesn't actually say or that John Calvin writings don't support. In your theology the phrase "God so loved that He gave" is reduced to God so loves to control that He's forced everyone to do what He says so He can destroy the majority of His own creation. That, in a nutshell, is what I cannot understand anyone who claims to love God doing. It's an attack upon who God is, what He's like, what love is, and an attack on the meaning of the English language all in one go.

                That's not a personal attack on you as everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. You know, the power of choice that God gave humanity. I just can't understand why a Christian would choose to believe that. And yet you determinists insist that this belief praises God's love by denigrating it, by making His love a farcical concept.
                “Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.”
                ― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

                “One and God make a majority.”
                ― Frederick Douglass

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                  That is about God bounding all to the same place so He can have mercy ON THEM ALL. Another scripture that disproves your doctrine.
                  That verse informs us that man by nature is born imprisoned in unbelief. All men jew and gentile.
                  "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                  preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                  called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                  a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                  Charles Spurgeon !

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by ffreeloader View Post

                    So, in other words, you just redefined the English language to see what you wanted to see for the definitions of the wording of the passage lend no creedence to your belief.

                    I've read John Calvin and been in plenty of debates with Calvinists. And I can't actually find your beliefs in Calvin's writings. He says that those who reject God's love frustrate His purposes. So, I've never understood why Calvinists desire to twist scripture into something it doesn't actually say or that John Calvin writings don't support. In your theology the phrase "God so loved that He gave" is reduced to God so loves to control that He's forced everyone to do what He says so He can destroy the majority of His own creation. That, in a nutshell, is what I cannot understand anyone who claims to love God doing. It's an attack upon who God is, what He's like, what love is, and an attack on the meaning of the English language all in one go.

                    That's not a personal attack on you as everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. You know, the power of choice that God gave humanity. I just can't understand why a Christian would choose to believe that. And yet you determinists insist that this belief praises God's love by denigrating it, by making His love a farcical concept.
                    No, What does Jn 6:44, 65 say ?
                    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                    Charles Spurgeon !

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                      That verse informs us that man by nature is born imprisoned in unbelief. All men jew and gentile.
                      That is not what it means. It means all are condemned until they come to Him through faith in Jesus.

                      It means ALL people.

                      All people are bound to the same place and ALL people can be saved.

                      Oh how I love the Word of God!

                      Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                        No, What does Jn 6:44, 65 say ?
                        You don't even know what that scripture says because you are brainwashed by Calvinists.

                        When Jesus came to earth and had his earthly ministry, he only came for the Jews who already belonged to God by faith; the rest of the Jews were cut off and hardened until Jesus was crucified then ALL can come to him to be saved, even the Jews who had him crucified!

                        The people that were drawn to Jesus were drawn to him because they RECOGNIZED he was speaking the words from God.

                        Read the scripture more carefully---

                        John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
                        Oh how I love the Word of God!

                        Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          If we don't have freewill, then God would just had programmed all people to love Him and do right.

                          But that is the very reason we know good from evil and have free will, because God wants us to choose to love Him.

                          What kind of love is it if you don't have a choice?
                          Oh how I love the Word of God!

                          Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                            That is not what it means. It means all are condemned until they come to Him through faith in Jesus.

                            It means ALL people.

                            All people are bound to the same place and ALL people can be saved.
                            Sure it does. All men are in a prison of unbelief !
                            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                            Charles Spurgeon !

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                              Sure it does. All men are in a prison of unbelief !
                              No such scripture about a prison of unbelief.
                              Oh how I love the Word of God!

                              Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by God's Truth View Post

                                No such scripture about a prison of unbelief.
                                I gave you the scripture Rom 11:32
                                "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                                preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                                called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                                a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                                Charles Spurgeon !

                                Comment

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