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THE APOSTLES DID NOT PREACH THE SAME GOSPEL

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  • Theo102

    The blood of animals did not take away their sins but God told the people to do it for the forgiveness of sins. See Hebrews 9:22.

    The sacrifice of animals made the people ceremonially clean.

    Hebrews 9:13
    For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that their bodies are clean,


    Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

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    • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
      What you said doesn't change a thing.
      It changes the assumption that the gentiles don't include people of the covenant.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
        It changes the assumption that the gentiles don't include people of the covenant.
        A person who comes in the covenant with God is anyone who comes in the covenant with God.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
          That would depend on whether on not what you had faith in was consistent with those ideals.
          Yes. There is only one Truth, and one true reading of Scripture. I don't go for relativism. This true reading synthesizes all major themes in Scripture, and is understandable by anyone who desires to believe. Yet, it certainly contains deeper theological elements for the more scholarly. And it is also certainly difficult for many to understand because it goes against the world and fallen human nature. What is this one true reading? That, I think, is the #1 purpose of any serious theological debate among Christians...with an emphasis on understanding what must happen in order for one to gain eternal life with Christ. There can be a difference in emphasis among true Christians...God fashioned each of us differently, so some of us may feel that God's grace works more often through dramatic spiritual transformations and others may emphasize the way it leads to a life of service...but all believe in the same things: grace, repentence, being born again, growth in holiness, etc. Logically there must be one core orthodox message if there is to be One Body in Christ.

          Christ is the Lamb (as in the book of Revelation, probably elsewhere), and there is only one Christ. After Jesus, or at least after the fullness of the Gospel was preached to Jews and Gentiles, nobody had to sacrifice animals anymore to be put right with God. As you show in the quotes you give, God has at many times asked people to turn to Him completely rather than using any other gift, sacrifice, or ritual to make peace with Him. This is fullfilled in Christ.

          I'm not exactly sure about your argument is, or if is meant in a grave, earnest matter, or in a more light and intellectual manner (which is not necessarily wrong), so please forgive me if I have gone of on any tangents not related to the main flow of your thought.

          Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
          Ignoring text that doesn't agree with your beliefs is a lot like cherry-picking the facts that don't disrupt your model of the world. It's not a great strategy if you want to be rational about it.
          Agreed, that was the point I was making. This is what I used to do before I really understood the idea of justification by faith.

          Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
          In the original context of the covenant the blood was symbolic, and sacrifice was repudiated by several of the prophets:

          But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
          Matthew 9:13
          Yes, it was symbolic. But, obviously, Jesus' death was real, and his blood was real. And it accomplished something real. Theologically speaking, did God have to do this? I think no is the right answer. But He did it, so that His free gift could go out to Jews and Gentiles. All of this ties in to a consistent theme throughout scripture. There may be some difference in terms of one or two rules that Jews need to follow and Gentiles don't. Something for me to look into further...I know I don't have every answer.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
            blood of animals did not take away their sins but God told the people to do it for the forgiveness of sins. See Hebrews 9:22.
            The writer of Hebrews wasn't a prophet like Isaiah.

            Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
            Isaiah 1:18

            Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
            Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
            In the context of Leviticus 17 sacrifices were to be made upon a specific altar relating to a specific people.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
              A person who comes in the covenant with God is anyone who comes in the covenant with God.
              Neither the old covenant nor the new covenant relate to persons.

              For YHWH ... regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
              Deuteronomy 10:17

              Comment


              • Originally posted by thborn View Post
                But, obviously, Jesus' death was real, and his blood was real. And it accomplished something real. Theologically speaking, did God have to do this? I think no is the right answer. But He did it, so that His free gift could go out to Jews and Gentiles. All of this ties in to a consistent theme throughout scripture. There may be some difference in terms of one or two rules that Jews need to follow and Gentiles don't. Something for me to look into further...I know I don't have every answer.
                What is obvious isn't necessarily true, for example man going to the moon. The short story is that the technical challenges (especially the hazard posed by the van Allen radiation) could not be overcome by NASA in the sixties, so their elites faked it rather than admit defeat. One of the proofs is that there's no hypergolic flame evident for the ascent stage leaving the lunar module, another is the short communications response time.

                The idea of a free gift is first expressed as a light to the Gentiles, which is associated with the idea of judgement (Isaiah 42:1-6); i.e. there's no such thing as a free lunch.

                The idea of constancy is expressed here:

                For I am YHWH, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
                Malachai 3:6

                One of the qualities of YHWH is justice/righteousness:

                For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
                Palm 11:7

                Tying together the ideas of justice and judgment, the inconsistency between that and the idea of an innocent man being crucified as part of a divine plan is pretty stark. Adding the repudiation of sacrifice by the prophets and the alternative expression of the sign relating to the crucifixion, there's grounds for testing the idea that the crucifixion isn't what it seemed to be, IMO.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
                  Neither the old covenant nor the new covenant relate to persons.

                  For YHWH ... regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
                  Deuteronomy 10:17
                  This is taking scripture out of context.

                  Deu 10:15-16 KJV Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. (16) Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

                  Got back to the drawing board and learn what that passage actually means.
                  All of my ancestors are human.
                  Originally posted by Squeaky
                  That explains why your an idiot.
                  Originally posted by God's Truth
                  Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                  Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                  1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                  (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                  Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                    This is taking scripture out of context.
                    What do you think the correct context is for "regardeth not persons"?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Theo102 View Post

                      What do you think the correct context is for "regardeth not persons"?
                      God is telling Israel not to be proud, even though He chose them and separated them from other people.

                      Deu 10:16-19 KJV Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. (17) For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: (18) He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. (19) Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
                      All of my ancestors are human.
                      Originally posted by Squeaky
                      That explains why your an idiot.
                      Originally posted by God's Truth
                      Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
                      Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

                      1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
                      (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

                      Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
                        The writer of Hebrews wasn't a prophet like Isaiah.

                        Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
                        Isaiah 1:18


                        In the context of Leviticus 17 sacrifices were to be made upon a specific altar relating to a specific people.
                        You have no business putting down Hebrews; not very reasonable of you to do that

                        Why do you think you needed to say sacrifices were made upon a specific altar?

                        The priests took care of the offerings being made.

                        Anyone could come into the covenant with God if they did what God said to do.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Theo102 View Post
                          Neither the old covenant nor the new covenant relate to persons.

                          For YHWH ... regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
                          Deuteronomy 10:17
                          Of course, the covenants have to do with people.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Theo102 View Post

                            What do you think the correct context is for "regardeth not persons"?
                            That means God doesn't care if you are male or female, young or old, what nationality you are and if you are poor or rich or educated or not or royalty or a slave.

                            God cares about what we do as in good or bad.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
                              God is telling Israel not to be proud, even though He chose them and separated them from other people.
                              OK, so why would you argue that the context affects the meaning of "persons" when I said that "Neither the old covenant nor the new covenant relate to persons" (re Deuteronomy 10:17)?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                                Of course, the covenants have to do with people.
                                People and persons are different things.

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