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The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul (or State of the Dead).

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Hobie View Post
    God can bring them back as He has the power, but this is a complete and eternal separation, eternal death.

    Nobody is going to the bosom of Abraham, that was a idea that the religious leaders told the people, and Jesus turned it on its head.
    I'm not talking about going to the bosom of Abraham.
    We can tell that's poetic - for really, how huge is Abraham's bosom to accommodate everyone?
    I'm referring to the consistency of how someone in hell would feel. Obviously, that rich man did not perish - as in getting extinguished - and clearly, he feels the pain.



    Whether burning in fire is a literal description or not, that separation from God will still result with an agonizing punishment that will be felt by the unsaved for eternity!





    There are more verses, if we search diligently. Here's another one:


    Matthew 18
    6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

    7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!
    8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
    9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.




    Imagine that. Death by drowning would be much more preferable!
    Why are the imageries of hell CONSISTENTLY depicted so horribly?

    Surely, repeatedly being warned about hell and eternal punishment ought to be taken seriously.


    Please give us your thought on this:
    Why do you think God gives a very vivid description of the punishment that will be meted to the unsaved?
    Last edited by betsy123; June 9th, 2019, 05:05 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Hobie View Post
      Man was not given a soul he became a living soul. Don't miss that as it is the unity of body and breath-of-life that constitute the soul. You ARE a soul; you do not HAVE a soul. .

      The idea can be expressed as such:
      Physical body (dust) + breath of life (spirit - ruwach) = living soul (a wholism of the two - nephesh)

      The Hebrew word for soul is"nephesh". Nephesh was translated into many different English words for the KJV Bible (for instance; creature, beast, man, fish, thing, person or persons, etc) but an important thing one should plainly see is that none of the translations refer to it as being something that survives the death of the body nor does it mean that in the original Hebrew. It was used to describe the "wholism" of life - not a "dualism" as was latter taught by the Greeks (Plato to be precise) and is unfortunately with us still today.


      If it's not dualism, why are there CONSISTENT disntinctions?

      1 Thess 5:23
      May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.




      We are the soul, encased within the physical, made of dust.
      Thus when we PHYSICALLY die - the dust returns to dust - but the soul still exists!

      It is the soul that makes us be alive! Without the soul, we are just a lump of formed people but without any life! That's what "living souls" mean.

      And if a dead walks about - like a voodoo zombie - that would be demonic!



      Genesis 35:18 - And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.



      Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



      Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.




      Why are there two types of death?
      Why is it that the dead are described to be "sleeping" if their physical bodies had already decayed and returned to dust?
      Last edited by betsy123; June 9th, 2019, 05:07 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Truster View Post
        To fully understand the experience and reality of eternal life a man needs to have received it at regeneration. You haven't and so you can't possibly understand it.
        A man that has been set free by the truth from error and superstition shall recognise the truth when he hears or reads it. He will also recognise the Spirit of truth in anyone he meets and where that blessed Spirit is not he will know and beware.
        I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

        "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

        I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
        A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
        If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

        Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

        I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Truster View Post
          To fully understand the experience and reality of eternal life a man needs to have recieved it at regeneration. You haven't and so you can't possibly understand it.
          1 Timothy 6:14-16 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
          15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
          16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

          As is obvious, from the above scriptures, if God alone has immortality, then the human soul cannot. The idea that every human being that is born into the world will exist for eternity from that point on, whether in the flesh, or in some other form, is not biblical. If in fact, there were no death, that is the end of life, nonexistence, then why do the scriptures make the promise of eternal life to the believer so very many times? This would be a silly promise to make to beings that are already immortal.

          I John 5:10-12 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
          11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
          12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

          God has given us eternal life through his Son. This is not something we posses in and of ourselves, but only as we believe in the Son of God. Jesus Christ, if we attach ourselves to him, then we to have a path to eternal life when He comes at the Second Coming. This is not however, on account of anything in us, but only because we have accepted the death of the Lord Jesus Christ in our own lives, that the life of the Son might also be in us. Thus the believer inherits eternal life on account of the Son.
          Last edited by Hobie; June 9th, 2019, 05:34 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Hobie View Post
            1 Timothy 6:14-16 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
            15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
            16 Who only hath immortality
            , dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

            As is obvious, from the above scriptures, if God alone has immortality, then the human soul cannot. The idea that every human being that is born into the world will exist for eternity from that point on, whether in the flesh, or in some other form, is not biblical. If in fact, there were no death, that is the end of life, nonexistence, then why do the scriptures make the promise of eternal life to the believer so very many times? This would be a silly promise to make to beings that are already immortal.
            Of course - at that, and at this time, no one has eternal life except God.

            HOWEVER......we are going to be judged on Judgement Day.
            Jesus will fulfill His promise!


            John 2:25
            And this is what he promised us--eternal life.



            ISN'T THAT THE PROMISE?




            To have eternal life is to be immortal. The saved will become immortals!
            Last edited by betsy123; June 9th, 2019, 06:04 AM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Hobie View Post
              1 Timothy 6:14-16 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
              15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
              16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

              As is obvious, from the above scriptures, if God alone has immortality, then the human soul cannot. The idea that every human being that is born into the world will exist for eternity from that point on, whether in the flesh, or in some other form, is not biblical. If in fact, there were no death, that is the end of life, nonexistence, then why do the scriptures make the promise of eternal life to the believer so very many times? This would be a silly promise to make to beings that are already immortal.

              I John 5:10-12 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
              11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
              12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

              God has given us eternal life through his Son. This is not something we posses in and of ourselves, but only as we believe in the Son of God. Jesus Christ, if we attach ourselves to him, then we to have a path to eternal life when He comes at the Second Coming. This is not however, on account of anything in us, but only because we have accepted the death of the Lord Jesus Christ in our own lives, that the life of the Son might also be in us. Thus the believer inherits eternal life on account of the Son.
              So you can cut and paste. Paul couldn't and neither could Peter.
              I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

              "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

              I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
              A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
              If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

              Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

              I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Truster View Post
                So you can cut and paste. Paul couldn't and neither could Peter.
                Lol. What's wrong with cut and paste? We've got that tool - why not use it?

                He cut and paste because he wants to give something to support his argument.
                See? He got you there.
                You seem stumped by his explanation, along with his cut-and-paste to support it.

                What have you got to support yours?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                  1 Timothy 6:14-16 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
                  15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
                  16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

                  As is obvious, from the above scriptures, if God alone has immortality, then the human soul cannot. The idea that every human being that is born into the world will exist for eternity from that point on, whether in the flesh, or in some other form, is not biblical. If in fact, there were no death, that is the end of life, nonexistence, then why do the scriptures make the promise of eternal life to the believer so very many times? This would be a silly promise to make to beings that are already immortal.

                  I John 5:10-12 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
                  11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
                  12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

                  God has given us eternal life through his Son. This is not something we posses in and of ourselves, but only as we believe in the Son of God. Jesus Christ, if we attach ourselves to him, then we to have a path to eternal life when He comes at the Second Coming. This is not however, on account of anything in us, but only because we have accepted the death of the Lord Jesus Christ in our own lives, that the life of the Son might also be in us. Thus the believer inherits eternal life on account of the Son.
                  Your mixing the visible mortal personas (typology in two types of mentalities, religious and its opposite symbolized in Jew and Gentile) masks, everyone here wears, that's veiling the immortal light of I AM, each mans conscience, that is the light of Christ John 1:9, which is foolishness to mans veiled mind, serving his intellectual pride, or looking for signs of observation.

                  The inward Christ left behind will say I never knew you to the outward looking Jew and Gentile persona who is enslaved to effect, ignorant of his own conscience being the the power of all causation in his/ her staged life time, believing in the world of good and evil, birth and death that don't exist in Christs kingdom, no offense is even acknowledged unless pride and respect for the mask of person or god is still leavening the heart and mind with separatist dogma, Galatians 3:28-29, 4:1, but be of good cheer none will be lost 2 Tim 2:13, the persona will be judged and perish not the light of Christ that is individualized seeds of conscience that will fall and die many times as a man until fully awakened Psalms 82:6-7.

                  Everyone from the least to the greatest persona have no earthly conceptual understanding of their own I AM, Matt 11:11, and is to be left behind John 3:30, for spiritual progression to keep rising out of the death of earthly minded flesh, 2 Corinthians 5:16, 1 Corinthians 15:46-47, that's not some deity outside you coming from heaven to cloth you with his pure light of conscience, the tomb or cup is cleansed inside out first.

                  The inward man suffering under the visible dominance of his outward looking religions, that keep his glass colored darkly, Paul called them a babe who kinda believes 1 Corinthians 3:16, 2 Corinthians 13:5, but the mind can't fully except that of himself because babes are still under the influence of the thinking persona and for fear of blaspheme their outward god which is the real blaspheme of the Christ within and breaking the first commandment to have no other gods before me in my kingdom Luke 17:21.

                  Jew and gentile are Hagar's sons in bondage to flesh and blood theology or science based on observational effect, neither line up with what Christ in Jesus taught about Gods kingdom being none observable and in your own conscience Luke 17:20-21, the mystery of Paul's gospel is Christ in you the hope of glory that is ever available and present, not some dead letter allegorical future for personas asleep in what Christ termed being dead men, were advised to bury our earthy concepts with the Christ of flesh.....Ephesians 5:13-14, that is the resurrection of our Christ/light spiritual blood shed on thee, that comes buried in all sons of god coming into this world entombed in flesh/man John 1:9, Jesus being a way shower of the perfected God in and as man, IS RA EL Romans 6:9, not some geographical place in the middle east that symbolized that event in each man awakening to his immortal conscience being the pearl hidden in the dead letter hell.
                  Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                    One of the most deceptive doctrines of Satan is the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. .
                    Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                    Then why do you need Christ if you are immortal, that's not biblical. .
                    Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                    The wicked do not get eternal life. .


                    There is
                    1 spiritual death Mat_8:22
                    2 physical death Mat 8:22
                    3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12 (still existing)
                    4 death as a place Rev 20:13


                    here we have all 4

                    Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
                    Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
                    Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

                    Abraham, Lazarus and The rich man all dead Physically yet existing .

                    The rich man is also dead spiritually and in the place of the dead. Rev 20:13

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Truster View Post
                      To fully understand the experience and reality of eternal life a man needs to have recieved it at regeneration. You haven't and so you can't possibly understand it.
                      When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

                      Psalms 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

                      In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

                      Psalms 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

                      Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.

                      Psalms 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

                      How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

                      Psalms 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

                      If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

                      Psalms 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

                      Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

                      Psalms 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

                      Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

                      Psalms 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death:wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

                      Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

                      Psalms 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

                      God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

                      Psalms 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

                      Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                        When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

                        Psalms 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

                        In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

                        Psalms 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

                        Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.

                        Psalms 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

                        How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

                        Psalms 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

                        If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

                        Psalms 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

                        Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

                        Psalms 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

                        Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

                        Psalms 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death:wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

                        Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

                        Psalms 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

                        God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

                        Psalms 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

                        Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?
                        You use the scriptures like a drunk uses a lamp post. For support and not for illumination.

                        John saw the souls of martyrs under the altar and they were speaking. That is proof of their immortality.
                        I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

                        "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

                        I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
                        A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
                        If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

                        Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

                        I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                          When the dust returns to the earth, and the spirit back to God who gave it, there is no longer a living soul. If the soul were immortal, then the scriptures would not speak of living, or dying souls. Of course a soul would be living if souls were immortal, and of course they would never be spoken of as dying if they were immortal either. So why do the scriptures apply both to the soul?

                          Because physical death isn't the same as the "death" of a soul.
                          A soul dying is, "spiritual death."
                          Revelations talks about the second death.


                          Rev 2
                          11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

                          Rev 20
                          6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.


                          Rev 21
                          8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Hobie View Post

                            Psalms 6:2 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; for I am weak: O LORD, heal me; for my bones are vexed. 3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long? 4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. 5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

                            In the above, David seeks to have himself, that is his soul delivered from death, because in the grave there is no remembrance of God, and he cannot give God thanks from the grave. How is this possible if the soul is immortal? If the soul were alive and in heaven with God surely it would be praising Him. Or if it were in hell, surely it would be cursing Him.

                            Psalms 7:1 O LORD my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me: 2 Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver. 3 O LORD my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands; 4 If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy 5 Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust. Selah.

                            Again what sense do the above verses make if a soul is not a living person, rather than some floating entity that lives apart from the body? Can a soul be torn to pieces? Will it end when ones life does? Yes it will.

                            Psalms 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

                            How can a soul go to the grave? If it is immortal and goes to heaven or hell at death it should not be spoken of as dying and going to the grave. If on the other hand, it is a living being, then it could be said that ones soul goes to the grave when they die, it is it’s end. When life ends, it ends.

                            Psalms 33:18 Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; 19 To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. 20 Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield. 21 For our heart shall rejoice in him, because we have trusted in his holy name. 22 Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.

                            If our souls must be delivered from death, then they are not immortal. They are like us, they are us, when we are alive. When we are raised from the dead and given everlasting life, we will again be living souls.

                            Psalms 40:13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me: O LORD, make haste to help me. 14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

                            Who can destroy a soul if it is immortal? It is not. When life ends, it ends, because when one is alive, they are a living soul.

                            Psalms 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. 14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. 15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

                            Again the soul being associated with life, being redeemed from the grave. If it were immortal, this would not be so.

                            Psalms 56:12 Thy vows are upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. 13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death:wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

                            Again, when God delivers the soul from death, one can walk in the light of the living. Makes no sense if the soul is immortal.

                            Psalms 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

                            God spared not the Egyptians souls from death, but killed them by the plagues. Their souls died, that is, they died. Obviously their souls were not immortal.

                            Psalms 86:1 Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy. 2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee. 3 Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.

                            Who needs their soul to be preserved if it is immortal?

                            Psalms are prayers and hymns. Psalms are written like poetry - rich with figures of speech!

                            Just look at this:

                            Psalm 30
                            3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.



                            How do you take that literally?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by betsy123 View Post
                              I'm not talking about going to the bosom of Abraham.
                              We can tell that's poetic - for really, how huge is Abraham's bosom to accommodate everyone?
                              I'm referring to the consistency of how someone in hell would feel. Obviously, that rich man did not perish - as in getting extinguished - and clearly, he feels the pain.



                              Whether burning in fire is a literal description or not, that separation from God will still result with an agonizing punishment that will be felt by the unsaved for eternity!





                              There are more verses, if we search diligently. Here's another one:


                              Matthew 18
                              6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

                              7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!
                              8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
                              9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.




                              Imagine that. Death by drowning would be much more preferable!
                              Why are the imageries of hell CONSISTENTLY depicted so horribly?

                              Surely, repeatedly being warned about hell and eternal punishment ought to be taken seriously.


                              Please give us your thought on this:
                              Why do you think God gives a very vivid description of the punishment that will be meted to the unsaved?
                              It is very important that we understand that this is the point where they are completely, totally, and eternally separated from God, never to be brought back. It is forever, the wicked perish and sin is gone, eternal death is the judgement for the wicked.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Hobie View Post
                                It is very important that we understand that this is the point where they are completely, totally, and eternally separated from God, never to be brought back. It is forever, the wicked perish and sin is gone, eternal death is the judgement for the wicked.
                                We both don't know if "burning in fire" can be taken literally - or used as a comparison for the pain - but what is clear, is that the separation from God will be felt by the unsaved for eternity!
                                It will be an agonizing separation for eternity.

                                We have to be clear on that.


                                God has gone through all the trouble of "scaring" us by laying out in gross details how it will be for the unsaved, that we should make a choice between life or "death"....while there is still time to do so.

                                I'm having the same discussion with a Jehovah's Witnesses in another forum (who says a loving God cannot be that cruel) and I explained to her:


                                That's you - putting your own spin on the kind of God that you prefer!
                                Though God had specifically illustrated numerous times of the horrible ETERNAL punishment that await the unsaved - your WatchTower prefer to dilute and twist the truth of God, and thus
                                you guys are undermining the important message of God regarding the choice that a person
                                should make: either eternal life or eternal punishment!

                                Jehovah's Witnesses remind me of a parent who tries to discredit what the other parent tries to do when he tries to discipline the child.

                                If we'll simply cease to exist - why wouldn't He just say so?
                                Does it ever occur to you why God would go to such lengths - NUMEROUS TIMES - as to give such scary and horrible imageries of hell and eternal punishment?

                                Yes, He's scaring people for a reason! He wants them to make a choice....before it's too late!
                                And WatchTower kinda says: "Nah....don't take Him seriously. He's not going to do that....."

                                God is trying to lay it all out - and you're downplaying it.

                                How many people I wonder, had taken your personal opinion on it and had decided to choose death instead of life - after all, as you assure them (despite what God had repeatedly warned, and illustrated) - there is no such thing as eternal punishment?

                                Don't you get how frustrating that would be for God had He been a person dealing with something like that?

                                -----------------


                                The consistency of the description of punishment from various verses of the Bible, including the usage of it by Jesus in one of His parables, clearly say that the unsaved will feel agony for all eternity!

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