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  • Christians such as yourself, make it more difficult for the little ones. The formula you provide makes it more difficult to understand the more important things. While you don’t realize it, you are adding to the Bible, which is a no no. The subject you use in the formula is a mind crowder. The time period you use was dealing in miracles. God being with them, there are many things that happened that are not written. I will bring to your attention the fact that the shoes they began the forty years with, were in as good a shape at the conclusion. The walked in a circle it makes no difference how big the circle, God was punishing them. He could have done them in right away to save time, but time was what God had the most of. Thank you. Fred Eans

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    • Originally posted by Fred Eans View Post
      Christians such as yourself, make it more difficult for the little ones. The formula you provide makes it more difficult to understand the more important things. While you don’t realize it, you are adding to the Bible, which is a no no. The subject you use in the formula is a mind crowder. The time period you use was dealing in miracles. God being with them, there are many things that happened that are not written. I will bring to your attention the fact that the shoes they began the forty years with, were in as good a shape at the conclusion. The walked in a circle it makes no difference how big the circle, God was punishing them. He could have done them in right away to save time, but time was what God had the most of. Thank you. Fred Eans
      Who are you talking to?

      Please use the "Reply with Quote" button when responding to a post, or if you're on Tapatalk, select the post you're replying to, then hit the reply button.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by jmibnorthern
        Chair. This is not bullying. Youre impying that the only thing we can stand on never existed.

        If the Bible is flawed at all there is no basis for anyone's belief in your religion or ours. We're better off practicing witchcraft which will at least give us some sort of power over the temporal life.

        I've sworn off witchcraft and the cesspool in the hopes of getting my soul back into the eternal hands if he'll take me back at all. And others here and I don't appreciate anyone who tells me that the bible is flawed in any way.

        If other non observant Jews are just like you I question the purpose for their existence and what they base any sort of credibility on.

        Chair, if the Bible is significantly flawed, what is the basis of your credibility as a Jew?

        Hasn't your Judaism actually become something else entirely if it's not based on the Bible or Torah?

        In which case, call it something else.

        Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
        First of all, I am not a "non-observant Jew".

        I follow my people's ancient traditions. Some of these are oral, some were written a thousand years ago, and the core text, teh Torah, was written 3,000 years ago. All of these are holy, the Torah (OT of the Bible) being the oldest, holiest, and most authoritative.

        For me, as a Jew, this is very straightforward.

        Those who insist that the Bible is God's Literal Word need to think: "how do you know this?" There is no proof of this. The Bible itself doesn't claim this.

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        • Originally posted by chair View Post
          Those who insist that the Bible is God's Literal Word need to think: "how do you know this?" There is no proof of this. The Bible itself doesn't claim this.
          Sure it does:

          What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. - Romans 3:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
            Sure it does:

            What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. - Romans 3:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...2&version=NKJV
            1. For me Romans isn't the Bible. It is a letter that Paul wrote
            2. All that verse proves is that Paul thought that the "oracles of God" were committed to the Jews. Whatever the "oracles are
            3. what are the "oracles of god?" could be a few things....
            4. You can try using that verse to prove something about the OT, but not the NT.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by chair View Post
              1. For me Romans isn't the Bible. It is a letter that Paul wrote
              2. All that verse proves is that Paul thought that the "oracles of God" were committed to the Jews. Whatever the "oracles are
              3. what are the "oracles of god?" could be a few things....
              4. You can try using that verse to prove something about the OT, but not the NT.
              Your disregard of Paul's letters (about 2/3 of the New Testament) don't change the fact that they are Holy Scripture. You don't get to decide what is or isn't God's Word.
              "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

              If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

              Comment


              • Originally posted by chair View Post
                There has been some arrogant bullying from your side:
                While the layman Jew may have 'some' insight into contradictions, Maimonides defines Orthodox Judaism. Unorthodox Jews exist of course (apparently you).
                Let me understand: Are you saying you have an equal grasp as your Rabbi? The 'apparent' was more of a guess/question not a slam. Maybe English is different on this side of the ocean? There is no implied slam, but there are camps/groups that hold to certain positions.
                Originally Posted by Lon
                Ah, so you've passed your bar mitzvah.
                Probably another bit of odd humor that slipped by. In the U.S., lawyers pass their 'bar' exam. I also was trying to say I recognize that all Jewish boys learn Hebrew by 13. It wasn't supposed to be more than saying I'm aware that you've had to have had Hebrew. I'd dare say, you are better versed than I, but that wasn't the original reason I brought it up. I brought it up simply to say I'm at least educated a bit to be able to hang with you through any of the language difficulties (if it were brought up). That point was further to just indicate that I'm read/versed in many of the problematic passages.
                In our (Christian) camp, we call these biased and unlearned.
                Look at the context again, I went on to say who I was talking about: The so-called higher critic. There is a bit of addressing you within contexts of the discussion but ONLY (as I've said a couple of times) for the larger discussion. We have 'higher' critics and atheists and such on TOL. I don't only engage you, but also am engaging the larger context of this discussion.

                At that point, if there is anything you have in common with the so-called higher critic, I simply cannot apologize for what I believe is a dismal education. It simply will not do, when they've been proven over and over again to be arrogantly ignorant. The early Germans can be forgive a bit in ignorance because the Dead Sea Scrolls etc. hadn't been found yet. I was watching that video I linked "Patterns of Evidence" and was amazed yet again, that a 'so-called' archeologist was saying the Exodus couldn't have happened. That guy, also, I'm more than convinced, will be found wanting but sadly he'll be long dead by the time someone 'could' have called him on the carpet for his bold-faced assertions.

                Even today, it simply does not make sense that anybody would lie about captivity in Egypt. It doesn't bode well for the critic/skeptic. It makes no intelligent sense. What those guys SHOULD be saying is, 'we haven't found any evidence at this time' like the better scholars and archaeologist are saying.
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by chair View Post
                  I don't think I've used the term 'error', but let's leave that alone for now.

                  There are several ways one can look at the text:
                  1. With the 'understanding' that it is God's Word, and therefore perfect. In which case everything can and must be explained somehow.
                  2. With the 'understanding' that it is a flawed human document, and every inconsistency proves that it is flawed and full or errors, and thus the Bible is basically useless
                  3. With the 'understanding' that is is ancient, holy and authoritative, even though it is largely authored by humans
                  4. With no presumptions at all, and see where it takes you

                  You are in category 1, though you pretend that you are in 4. You are making assumptions about the text, and then get riled up in your arrogant way about those who make other assumptions.
                  I was in category 1 in my youth, shifted to 4 for a while (or at least thought that I did- it is nearly impossible to really do so), and now I am in 3. This is this most reasonable approach.
                  Sort of. I WAS in category 4 THEN shifted to 1 (opposite of you). I've become MORE certain the text is authoritative (first) and because of that, that it certainly must seen as infallible. When the scripture tells you to honor your father and mother, you probably (like me) knew your parents were fallible. However, I didn't understand their fallibility until I myself matured. Even in that, there is an 'expectation' from God that you 'follow' instruction, not correct it. It brings a WHOLE other difference to the way we read those scriptures 'if' one is reading them and readily keying in upon errors: In the same way it'd be wrong from me to itemize my parent's failures before you (not honoring), it'd be wrong for me to point out any problem in the text 'if there even were any.'

                  I'm not saying I have grown to ignore problem texts. Rather, I've learned to put them in what I believe is an appropriate and God-given God-demanded perspective. Now, after all that, I'm convinced that your former observation is the correct one: We simply aren't always told everything, it hardly necessitates 'mistake' though it does mean 'mystery' and I prefer it because it doesn't assert what is impossible to prove or disprove. It simply says "I don't know" and I believe it is the correct stance (and again, it comes from you as well thus imho, is the better if not best position). If you will, it is where 'we laymen' best fit as well. It keeps us from being audacious.


                  Originally posted by chair View Post
                  If you are in #1, you must explain every problem (in your terms 'apparent problem', or 'what ignorant people think is a problem') in the text somehow. There have been several mentioned in this thread (like who killed Goliath, and who tempted David. Care to explain those?). You can convince yourself like this, but it is a game for those who start out totally convinced of the Bible being God's Word to start with. A claim that the Bible doesn't make for itself, by the way.
                  Er, it does, but we are handicapped proving the point with only the OT with you (why I pointed to Psalm 19). The Jews who wrote the New Testament books are much stronger on this point.

                  Originally posted by chair View Post
                  Reality is #3. It is an uncomfortable reality for those who require absolutes in their life, but so it goes.
                  It may seem that way, but there are two problems 1) That authority of God and His prophets is a respect and not a 'correction' issue and 2) that the N.T. (which you'll have to forgive, I can't get away from) asserts much more.


                  Originally posted by chair View Post
                  Please do both of us a favor, stop talking down to me. I am not ignorant, not a German Bible Critic, and not a liberal progressive non-traditional Jew who barely finished his Bar Mitzvah lessons.
                  Again, are you saying you are as learned as your Rabbi? I've been in church my whole life, so I've had about the English equivalent, but I'd never have said that I was anything but a layman. After attending seminary, the difference is pronounced (I learned a LOT).

                  I simply must ask if you are as educated and learned as your Rabbi.

                  Originally posted by chair View Post
                  I think you are intellectually dishonest. Your claim of "Investigating" and waiting out the truth is the actual academic standard." is not convincing I when you 'know' in advance what the answer is.
                  After doing this more than 100 times? I don't think so. Now who is belittling who? As I said "YOU" came up with a better answer, even, than this. "Something missing/not told" is an incredibly better answer. How in the world could I be less honest than AGREEING with you on that notion???
                  My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                  Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                  Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                  Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                  No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                  Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                  ? Yep

                  Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                  ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                  Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                    Who are you talking to?

                    Please use the "Reply with Quote" button when responding to a post, or if you're on Tapatalk, select the post you're replying to, then hit the reply button.
                    I think he's addressing the O.P. (had me wondering too):

                    Originally posted by Bee1 View Post
                    I know there are some who think that I am being facetious but 40 years to walk 1,500 miles ? And leave no trace of passage?
                    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                    ? Yep

                    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by chair View Post
                      1. For me Romans isn't the Bible. It is a letter that Paul wrote
                      Do you think that what the Apostle Peter wrote is Scripture?

                      2. All that verse proves is that Paul thought that the "oracles of God" were committed to the Jews. Whatever the "oracles are
                      3. what are the "oracles of god?" could be a few things....
                      https://www.gotquestions.org/oracles-of-God.html

                      So, what do YOU think Paul meant by "oracles of God" (the greek literally means, "words of God")

                      4. You can try using that verse to prove something about the OT, but not the NT.
                      Why not?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bee1 View Post
                        Since the time of Moses to now, not much has change in the Middle East geographically speaking. No violence volcanoes or ground changing earthquakes. From the Libya/Eygtian border to Red sea to Israel is about 750 miles. Average walking speed is 4 miles a day so about 175 hours non-stop. So let's slow that down to 1 mile a day = 4×175=700 hours. Let's rest 1 day for every mile (2 million plus people) that's 750 days + 700 hours. The Israelites did not travel in a straight line so let double the distant to 1,500 miles and travel 1/2 mile every 2 days, not even close to 40 years. I know there are some who think that I am being facetious but 40 years to walk 1,500 miles ? And leave no trace of passage?

                        Sent from my SM-J700P using Tapatalk
                        Why worry about it as a historic event or who wrote it, the dead read the dead letter literally, 2 Cor 3:6 missing its spiritually discerned messages wrote in allegorical stories Galatians 4:24, Psalms 78:2, that have little spiritual value as history to those reading it.

                        Luke 17:21, 1 Cor 3:16, 2 Cor 13:5, if your looking in the past or future your missing the mark Luke 17:20, your awareness, I AM is the Christ continually knocking on your door disregarded as foolishness by the intellect, and hidden from the sign seekers Matt 11:11, 23:13, God judges no man and doesn't require a literal blood sacrifice, a spiritual symbol where traditional eyes can't observe that conscience realm Psalms 40:6.
                        Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                          Let me understand: Are you saying you have an equal grasp as your Rabbi?
                          You keep asking this, though I don't understand why. There is a Rabbi who I ask for guidance on Jewish legal issues. But I don't know if that is what you mean by "your Rabbi". In general, most Rabbis know teh Talmudic and Halachic literature better than me, and most ( not all!) assume that the Bible is inerrant.

                          Why does this concern you?

                          Originally posted by Lon View Post
                          ....That point was further to just indicate that I'm read/versed in many of the problematic passages.
                          That may be the case, but when it comes down to it, you've said very little about the actual verses, and quite a lot about how I am in general wrong.
                          Originally posted by Lon View Post
                          Even today, it simply does not make sense that anybody would lie about captivity in Egypt. It doesn't bode well for the critic/skeptic. It makes no intelligent sense. What those guys SHOULD be saying is, 'we haven't found any evidence at this time' like the better scholars and archaeologist are saying.
                          Legends develop without anybody deliberately lying. I've seen this happen in my own lifetime.

                          Archaeologists will indeed say 'we haven't found any evidence at this time' - but they will also say that 'there couldn't have been millions in the Exodus. The Land of Israel couldn't and didn't support that many people back then.'

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            Do you think that what the Apostle Peter wrote is Scripture?
                            Of course not. Have you been paying attention? I am not a Christian.



                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            So, what do YOU think Paul meant by "oracles of God" (the greek literally means, "words of God")
                            Could be a number of things. The Ten Commandments, for example.
                            Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
                            Why not?
                            Because the verse is in the NT, referring to the OT. The NT didn't exist yet.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                              Sort of. I WAS in category 4 THEN shifted to 1 (opposite of you). I've become MORE certain the text is authoritative (first) and because of that, that it certainly must seen as infallible. When the scripture tells you to honor your father and mother, you probably (like me) knew your parents were fallible. However, I didn't understand their fallibility until I myself matured. Even in that, there is an 'expectation' from God that you 'follow' instruction, not correct it. It brings a WHOLE other difference to the way we read those scriptures 'if' one is reading them and readily keying in upon errors: In the same way it'd be wrong from me to itemize my parent's failures before you (not honoring), it'd be wrong for me to point out any problem in the text 'if there even were any.'

                              I'm not saying I have grown to ignore problem texts. Rather, I've learned to put them in what I believe is an appropriate and God-given God-demanded perspective. Now, after all that, I'm convinced that your former observation is the correct one: We simply aren't always told everything, it hardly necessitates 'mistake' though it does mean 'mystery' and I prefer it because it doesn't assert what is impossible to prove or disprove. It simply says "I don't know" and I believe it is the correct stance (and again, it comes from you as well thus imho, is the better if not best position). If you will, it is where 'we laymen' best fit as well. It keeps us from being audacious.


                              Er, it does, but we are handicapped proving the point with only the OT with you (why I pointed to Psalm 19). The Jews who wrote the New Testament books are much stronger on this point.


                              It may seem that way, but there are two problems 1) That authority of God and His prophets is a respect and not a 'correction' issue and 2) that the N.T. (which you'll have to forgive, I can't get away from) asserts much more.



                              Again, are you saying you are as learned as your Rabbi? I've been in church my whole life, so I've had about the English equivalent, but I'd never have said that I was anything but a layman. After attending seminary, the difference is pronounced (I learned a LOT).

                              I simply must ask if you are as educated and learned as your Rabbi.

                              After doing this more than 100 times? I don't think so. Now who is belittling who? As I said "YOU" came up with a better answer, even, than this. "Something missing/not told" is an incredibly better answer. How in the world could I be less honest than AGREEING with you on that notion???
                              Thanks for explaining your position. I don't find it particularly convincing, but I see where you are coming from. And reading this, I see why you keep asking me if I know as much as my Rabbi- you keep saying that because you realize (about yourself) that you were relatively ignorant until you went to Seminary. Perhaps- but that doesn't make the questions wrong, not does it make the standard answers correct.

                              Do you have any interest in discussing particulars? You seem to avoid that, and concentrate on explaining on how much you know and understand today- much more than some others do.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bee1 View Post
                                Since the time of Moses to now, not much has change in the Middle East geographically speaking. No violence volcanoes or ground changing earthquakes. From the Libya/Eygtian border to Red sea to Israel is about 750 miles. Average walking speed is 4 miles a day so about 175 hours non-stop. So let's slow that down to 1 mile a day = 4×175=700 hours. Let's rest 1 day for every mile (2 million plus people) that's 750 days + 700 hours. The Israelites did not travel in a straight line so let double the distant to 1,500 miles and travel 1/2 mile every 2 days, not even close to 40 years. I know there are some who think that I am being facetious but 40 years to walk 1,500 miles ? And leave no trace of passage?

                                40 years in the Bible refers to a generation.

                                As for the rest, as soon as you try to treat the Bible as some scientific precise reference you fall short. To understand what the human authors wanted to say, and what God wanted to reveal, you must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current.

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