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Sam Harris interviews Bart Ehriman

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Guyver View Post
    No Lon, I don’t believe I can grasp that meaning, would you like to explain it in great detail?
    Let me ask another way: Can you try to make one sentence that represents these four? You have a degree, give it a shot

    Jesus Christ is the Lord of Heaven and Earth.

    Jsus, the Lord of Heaven and Earth.

    Jesus Christ, the Lord over all of Heven and Earth.

    Jesus Christ is the Lord of Heaven and Maker of all the Earth.


    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Lon View Post
      Let me ask another way: Can you try to make one sentence that represents these four? You have a degree, give it a shot

      Jesus Christ is the Lord of Heaven and Earth.

      Jsus, the Lord of Heaven and Earth.

      Jesus Christ, the Lord over all of Heven and Earth.

      Jesus Christ is the Lord of Heaven and Maker of all the Earth.


      Perhaps I could form a sentence like that Lon, but I have no interest in doing so. I don’t really care about the intricacies of Bible wording. That’s for you, and those of like interests.

      I thought you were interested in explaining what that actually means in real life....you know, where we live.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Guyver View Post
        Perhaps I could form a sentence like that Lon, but I have no interest in doing so. I don’t really care about the intricacies of Bible wording. That’s for you, and those of like interests.

        I thought you were interested in explaining what that actually means in real life....you know, where we live.
        It is merely an example, don't get lost in details. Here is a redress of Ehrman's book. Have a look. Tim Barnett knows the language and knows textual criticism very well. A summation of his points are
        1) almost all variants are spelling related (easy fix - Greek was a common language of many people, spelling is easy to fix). These make up more than 70% of the variants.
        2) most others are non-viable variants (means we know they are wrong and not in the bible) because they are very few and not recopied.
        3) viable but of no consequence (they affect nothing) to the meaning (like in the example I gave you).
        4) viable and can challenge translation like the difference between 'our joy' vs. 'your joy' being completed. At that, a huge difference that cannot be appreciable? If one is to rejoice with those who rejoice, then in the Body, if one is completed in joy, the other likewise shares so translating this is no problem except to note what was likely the intent. Of all variants, less than 1% is of a problematic translation. Of those that affect Christian doctrine, other scripture passages shore up consistently, the common message such that it is not a burden.

        Example: a couple gospels have chapters that aren't present in others, and some are only found in a 'different' gospel. Likely, one was simply trying to preserve a gospel account and it affects the story of the gospel nor the theology of the gospel at all

        5)finally, the author uses a quote from Ehrman where Ehrman agrees no Christian doctrine changes because of these. IOW, "Misquoting Jesus" and a couple of his other books amount to much-to-do-about-nothing-really, by his own admission. Hope this all helps.
        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

        ? Yep

        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

        Comment


        • #94
          Lon, I’m more interested in hearing you explain the truth about the statements you quoted. I’m not interested in hearing you disagree with Dr. Bart Ehrman.

          Why don’t you discuss how you know those statements about Jesus are true?

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Guyver View Post
            Lon, I’m more interested in hearing you explain the truth about the statements you quoted. I’m not interested in hearing you disagree with Dr. Bart Ehrman.

            Why don’t you discuss how you know those statements about Jesus are true?
            Well, it was an example. We can get lost in details and then traverse far away from the premise of this thread (which is about Ehrman, specifically). For this truth, see Acts 17:24 with Ephesians 1:20,21 Psalm 89:29

            Rather what I was trying to do, was get you to compare the 4 statements, because someone will argue what it means, BUT you can write a cogent sentence that expresses what was said, giving credence to all 4 sentences/authors:

            Jesus Christ is the Lord of Heaven and Earth.

            Jsus, the Lord of Heaven and Earth.

            Jesus Christ, the Lord over all of Heven and Earth.

            Jesus Christ is the Lord of Heaven and Maker of all the Earth.
            "Jesus Christ is the Lord of Heaven and Maker of Earth." Do we know these to be true from other scriptures? Yes. My conclusion: Whatever translation, if it agrees with the wording of other scriptures, the conclusion is the same: It is a true expression of the intent and wholly agrees with the rest of the Bible.
            Because of that, there is no, and never was a problem.
            My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
            Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
            Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
            Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
            No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
            Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

            ? Yep

            Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

            ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

            Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Lon View Post
              Well, it was an example. We can get lost in details and then traverse far away from the premise of this thread (which is about Ehrman, specifically). For this truth, see Acts 17:24 with Ephesians 1:20,21 Psalm 89:29
              Lon, you cant give me bible verses. You need to make it real. Can you?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Guyver View Post
                Lon, you cant give me bible verses. You need to make it real. Can you?
                I don't think you were paying attention: The phrase I gave you was a bible verse. I simply 'varied' it so you'd understand what we are talking about with textual criticism. You simply CANNOT talk about textual criticism and variance without giving the texts they are concerned with. Yes, they ARE Bible verses. There is absolutely no "you can't give me Bible verses" to this conversation!

                I'm going to link

                and ALSO give you an example of text variation:

                Matthew 5:44
                MT/TR (majority/received texts): But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

                CT (critical text[s]: But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.
                This should 'make it real.' Its the English translation from Greek.

                In addition, here are the various texts with English equivalence on the right of variations in the Byzantine family (others here, but mostly in Greek with little explanation).

                Question: In honesty, is any one of them saying anything different than "Love your enemies and pray/do good to those who persecute you?"
                Look them over, do ANY of them say anything different than this?
                My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                ? Yep

                Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Lon View Post
                  I don't think you were paying attention: The phrase I gave you was a bible verse. I simply 'varied' it so you'd understand what we are talking about with textual criticism. You simply CANNOT talk about textual criticism and variance without giving the texts they are concerned with. Yes, they ARE Bible verses. There is absolutely no "you can't give me Bible verses" to this conversation!

                  I'm going to link

                  and ALSO give you an example of text variation


                  This should 'make it real.' Its the English translation from Greek.

                  In addition, here are the various

                  texts with English
                  equivalence on the right.

                  Question: In honesty, is any one of them saying anything different than "Love your enemies and pray/do good to those who persecute you?"
                  Look them over, do ANY of them say anything different than this?
                  I don’t care Lon. I couldn’t give a rip less. I don’t watch daytime television, because I know it isn’t real.

                  When I go to the DMV....that’s real. It’s an experience that requires thought and effort and it’s not pleasant. There’s a bunch of creepy people waiting around in the DMV, and there’s a person who speaks Russian at the counter I can’t relate to. I know the DMV is real because I experience it.

                  Is what you believe about Jesus real? Or, is it something you hope for in your mind?

                  That’s what I’m asking you.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Guyver View Post

                    Is what you believe about Jesus real? Or, is it something you hope for in your mind?

                    That’s what I’m asking you.
                    What evidence can I give you?

                    1) I have personal anecdotal story, but that seldom meets qualification or connects with people. They simply find the intervention of God (supernatural) implausible and scientifically impossible to observe. That is as it should be, because God certainly can make each and every person on the planet believe with no doubts. There is something that happens, tragically, when that happens: Grace is over. Why? Because nobody would have a choice at that point. They could no longer choose opposite. It'd be strong-arming and damning. God tarries that all who can and will, will come based on Grace and love.

                    2) Nature declares 'creation' therefore 'Creator.' We see incredible things. We have an earth that is perfect for life. I have a fish tank. If the conditions are off only slightly, certain species will die. If we were just a few degrees closer to the sun, we couldn't survive. A few degrees further away and we'd freeze (no idea what the actual distance for either happens to be). I know you don't want 'the bible' but all truth is self-authenticating. I realize the problem of that, I'm just telling you not to let another's hang up about something become your own. Don't allow bias.

                    I've heard similar from Mormons, but I don't discount their book because of what it says nor tell them not to use it. Rather I use it to discuss inconsistency or to tell them where they have something right (The Book of Mormon does contain pieces from the Bible).
                    3) We have an ability to reason well beyond this material plain. It demands that we also 'have' something beyond this material plain to be able to grasp that which exists, but isn't physically perceived.
                    Example: We know that a line goes on eternally with no end points. Wherever the universe ends, the line continues, forever. How do we know this? Not by measuring, but by reasoning, logically. We know it. Because we are able to capture that outside of this 'material plain' as true, we too know that something of us and our ability also comes from beyond this natural universe' ability to produce. It is a law of diminishing returns. Energy isn't lost, but neither does a physical world produce nonphysical abilities. We rationalize and conceive and are capable on a much higher plain. Reason? Something more made us than is contained in this universe as we interact physically (see, hear, taste, smell, and touch) with it.

                    4) Revelation. That is, 'if there is a God' it is reasonable to expect interaction. There are many religions but few that claim God, Himself came to spend time and communicate with us. Of those, none have the weight of teaching and spending time instructing man, but Judeo/Christian claim.
                    It is therefore, important for us, as created beings, to seek out truth of such a claim. If God has indeed interacted, according to expectation, we have to find where and how. As far as my journey: the Bible fits that expectation. Was it comfortable? No, because I learned that I don't measure up to what I'm supposed to have been. I believe it. What I'm seeing fits with real-world observation, love, and frustration (etc. etc.).

                    5) Other evidence. Sorry, I have to use the Bible for a few moments because to addresses your question of how we know (but I'll paraphrase so as not to give chapter and verse): Paul for instance, says creation declares Him. It says too that those who would be found by God, must seek Him with a promise they shall find Him under His met conditions. Yet another says that men already know by their own minds, that they are not creators, but creations. I did. I knew/know implicitly that I did not create/make myself. I'm the product of something other/greater than I. Even collectively, there is something greater than all we've learned and all we've done OR there would be nothing left to learn or do. It may not look like 'God' at the initial thought, but we all recognize to some degree, there are things vastly greater than ourselves and it bespeaks of greater love, greater intelligence, greater ability etc.

                    There are more, I'm merely posting a few here. Others have made longer lists of reasons why they know God exists. I'm giving a short one here because interaction wouldn't be as meaningful with a much longer list. -Lon
                    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                    ? Yep

                    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                    Comment


                    • Lon, I don’t care what religions, say...I care what you say.

                      And you don’t say jack-diddley. You have nothing, but you pretend to have everything.

                      Comment


                      • Lon, please excuse me for that insulting comment about your religion. I apologize.

                        Comment


                        • You were in a tizzy the other day.

                          Said a prayer for you

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                            What evidence can I give you?

                            1) I have personal anecdotal story, but that seldom meets qualification or connects with people. They simply find the intervention of God (supernatural) implausible and scientifically impossible to observe. That is as it should be, because God certainly can make each and every person on the planet believe with no doubts. There is something that happens, tragically, when that happens: Grace is over. Why? Because nobody would have a choice at that point. They could no longer choose opposite. It'd be strong-arming and damning. God tarries that all who can and will, will come based on Grace and love.
                            The interactions of God with people based on faith are probably scientifically impossible to observe in one sense....you are right. But, I don't find personal anecdotal stories implausible because I have experienced them myself. So, in this sense I would actually accept your testimony. But, I would understand it a bit differently than you do, because you (I'm assuming) only accept your type of religion (Christianity) as the right religion to lead a person to God, and I believe that God works in many wonderous and mysterious ways that are outside of the confines of religion.

                            God tarries that all who can and will, will come based on Grace and love.
                            I would also accept this point Lon, but as before I would understand it differently than you do (based on my assumptions regarding your beliefs).

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                              What evidence can I give you?


                              2) Nature declares 'creation' therefore 'Creator.' We see incredible things. We have an earth that is perfect for life. I have a fish tank. If the conditions are off only slightly, certain species will die. If we were just a few degrees closer to the sun, we couldn't survive. A few degrees further away and we'd freeze (no idea what the actual distance for either happens to be). I know you don't want 'the bible' but all truth is self-authenticating. I realize the problem of that, I'm just telling you not to let another's hang up about something become your own. Don't allow bias.
                              Nature offers us the appearance of design. It seems that all things here work together in such a marvelous and meaningful way to be outside the realm of chance occurrence.

                              Not only do we live in the "Goldilocks Zone" that you described regarding distance from the sun, but also the tilt of the Earth at 23 degrees plays a very important part. It has to do with protecting us from cosmic radiation in such a perfect way that it allows life to flourish here.

                              Yet, one may argue that the 23 degree tilt of the Earth that suits life so perfectly here was an accident - the result of the cosmic collision that led to the existence of our own moon. So, there is the idea that what seems perfectly designed, actually could be the result of chance occurrence, even as a pothole seems a perfect "design" for the water that has accumulated in it after a rain. The pothole is a perfect medium for containing water but it doesn't offer us the appearance of design because we know it happens by accident or natural forces.

                              But these ideas are based upon our own cognition. We know that our own cognition is far from perfect, and we may not even be able to view reality physically, based on the number of physical dimensions that exist. That's one point to consider. Here's another part.

                              Even as life seems to perfectly suited, designed, intended....for this planet, so is death. Everything that lives dies....but before it does it attempts to reproduce as it struggles for survival. All things work together in nature by balance - or so it appears to us - yet, all things are in a constant state of struggle and death.

                              So, to accept the view that God is our Creator, that Creation itself speaks to his work, is to also accept that notion that we were intended to struggle, suffer, and die here as well.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                                What evidence can I give you?

                                3) We have an ability to reason well beyond this material plain. It demands that we also 'have' something beyond this material plain to be able to grasp that which exists, but isn't physically perceived.
                                Example: We know that a line goes on eternally with no end points. Wherever the universe ends, the line continues, forever. How do we know this? Not by measuring, but by reasoning, logically. We know it. Because we are able to capture that outside of this 'material plain' as true, we too know that something of us and our ability also comes from beyond this natural universe' ability to produce. It is a law of diminishing returns. Energy isn't lost, but neither does a physical world produce nonphysical abilities. We rationalize and conceive and are capable on a much higher plain. Reason? Something more made us than is contained in this universe as we interact physically (see, hear, taste, smell, and touch) with it.

                                -Lon
                                The line continues on forever theoretically Lon, not actually. When the universe ends, all things we know end as well. The line would have no medium to continue to travel on, because there is nothing in existence, even as sound has no medium of travel outside of the confines of our own planet and/or atmosphere. So, one can scream as loudly as they want in space, but no one would ever hear it.

                                Regarding out ability to understand existence outside of our material plane, it's like the idea of your straight line. It exists as an "imagination" or creation of our own mental capacity. We can't say that anything outside of our material plane actually exists for the very reason that we can't measure it or detect it. Therefore, it is possible that these things only exist as a part of our own imaginations.

                                Comment

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