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Is believing/faith a work ?

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  • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
    Nowhere does that passage say believing isn't a work.
    Of course it does. You just don't want to believe it.

    Rom 4:5 KJV But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Paul is very clearly contrasting these two things.

    That's what happens when you try to force the Bible to support your false view.
    All of my ancestors are human.
    Originally posted by Squeaky
    That explains why your an idiot.
    Originally posted by God's Truth
    Father figure, Son figure, and Holy Spirit figure.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Right Divider View Post
      Of course it does. You just don't want to believe it.

      Rom 4:5 KJV But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

      Paul is very clearly contrasting these two things.

      That's what happens when you try to force the Bible to support your false view.
      I agree there's a contrast however it doesn't say believing isn't a work.

      Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
      "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
      preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
      called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
      a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

      Charles Spurgeon !

      Comment


      • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
        Nowhere does that passage say believing isn't a work.

        Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
        "believes" is contradictory to "work" in this verse, Rom 4:5

        do you understand this verse ?

        Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

        it does not say

        the one who does not work but works

        so your belief isn't true , you just have a refuted claim that you parrot .

        Comment


        • Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
          "believes" is contradictory to "work" in this verse, Rom 4:5

          do you understand this verse ?

          Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

          it does not say

          the one who does not work but works

          so your belief isn't true , you just have a refuted claim that you parrot .

          Again you have failed to show with that passage or any other for that matter that believing isnt a work. In fact its a action verb ! Do you know what a action is ?
          "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
          preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
          called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
          a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

          Charles Spurgeon !

          Comment


          • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
            Again you have failed to show with that passage or any other for that matter that believing isnt a work. In fact its a action verb ! Do you know what a action is ?

            believes in this verse is a noun, faith pisteuō

            which is why "believes" is contradictory to "work" in this verse, Rom 4:5

            Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

            Comment


            • Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
              believes in this verse is a noun, faith pisteuō

              which is why "believes" is contradictory to "work" in this verse, Rom 4:5

              Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
              Believeth here in Vs 5 is a verb


              https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang...gs=G4100&t=KJV
              "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
              preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
              called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
              a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

              Charles Spurgeon !

              Comment


              • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                And then faith is a noun again, which is what is counted as righteousness. Faith is the thing that does the believING, so faith is not a work (and believING is the work OF faith, not of man apart from faith as that which does the faithING).
                Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by blackbirdking View Post
                  Would you explain how one begins to have this "attitude"?
                  I would say it's a matter of trust. What is one trusting in to be saved or to be qualified to be saved? If salvation is contingent upon one's performance, then it is one's performance that one is trusting in to be saved. Trusting in Christ means that you have to abandon trusting in things that you do to save you, including religious rituals, good works, not sinning and so forth.

                  Those who have come to trust is Christ have likewise abandoned fears regarding one's salvation status, because they trust in Christ to take care of it. Everyone who does not believe in eternal security is in some way not trusting in Christ to save them.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                    And then faith is a noun again, which is what is counted as righteousness. Faith is the thing that does the believING, so faith is not a work (and believING is the work OF faith, not of man apart from faith as that which does the faithING).
                    Believe in Rom 4:5 is a verb, a action.

                    Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
                    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                    Charles Spurgeon !

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by bcbsr View Post
                      I would say it's a matter of trust. What is one trusting in to be saved or to be qualified to be saved? If salvation is contingent upon one's performance, then it is one's performance that one is trusting in to be saved. Trusting in Christ means that you have to abandon trusting in things that you do to save you, including religious rituals, good works, not sinning and so forth.

                      Those who have come to trust is Christ have likewise abandoned fears regarding one's salvation status, because they trust in Christ to take care of it. Everyone who does not believe in eternal security is in some way not trusting in Christ to save them.
                      Is believe in Rom 4:5 something someone does?

                      Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
                      "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                      preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                      called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                      a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                      Charles Spurgeon !

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                        Is believe in Rom 4:5 something someone does?

                        Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
                        There is a difference between believing and faith.

                        Faith is a thing, a spiritual gift from God to be possessed and used by His children as is love and hope. It is objective. When played, it makes a distinctive sound like no other.

                        Belief is not the instrument. It is that sound that comes from the instrument when it is played and it is a beautiful sound in God's ear because it glorifies Christ. It is a subjective action on the part of those who have received the gift of faith.

                        Just as a musical instrument is not the sound and the sound is not the musical instrument, so faith is not believing. Both work together to accomplish God's redemptive purposes.
                        Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

                        It is true that Trump does not fit modern Republican principles, but that is because modern Republican principles have strayed far from conservatism. genuineoriginal

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by George Affleck View Post
                          There is a difference between believing and faith.

                          Faith is a thing, a spiritual gift from God to be possessed and used by His children as is love and hope. It is objective. When played, it makes a distinctive sound like no other.

                          Belief is not the instrument. It is that sound that comes from the instrument when it is played and it is a beautiful sound in God's ear because it glorifies Christ. It is a subjective action on the part of those who have received the gift of faith.

                          Just as a musical instrument is not the sound and the sound is not the musical instrument, so faith is not believing. Both work together to accomplish God's redemptive purposes.
                          Please just answer the question

                          Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
                          "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                          preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                          called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                          a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                          Charles Spurgeon !

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                            Please just answer the question

                            Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk
                            He did. You just don’t want the scriptural and lexical/grammatical truth from scripture.

                            Faith is NOT a work. And believING is the work OF faith, not the person having the faith that is doing the believING.

                            But you will continue to read your false doctrinal errors into the inspired text, because that’s what humans do when they aren’t lovers of truth and lovers of God. You’re certainly not the only one, but you definitely are one who does this.

                            Nouns aren’t verbs. Man can’t believe if God doesn’t give man the thing that does the believing.
                            Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                            “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by PneumaPsucheSoma View Post
                              He did. You just don’t want the scriptural and lexical/grammatical truth from scripture.

                              Faith is NOT a work. And believING is the work OF faith, not the person having the faith that is doing the believING.

                              But you will continue to read your false doctrinal errors into the inspired text, because that’s what humans do when they aren’t lovers of truth and lovers of God. You’re certainly not the only one, but you definitely are one who does this.

                              Nouns aren’t verbs. Man can’t believe if God doesn’t give man the thing that does the believing.
                              We agree on the faith/noun/gift but it seems you are saying that faith, not the person, subsequently performs the believing.
                              I think I would disagree - if that was your position. It seems to me that the person, having received faith as a gift, will use it; not that it will use itself independent of the individual's will.

                              Nevertheless, I am willing to listen to reason - something, I have found, that you possess by the truckload...
                              Religion is man's attempt to make himself acceptable to God. Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.

                              It is true that Trump does not fit modern Republican principles, but that is because modern Republican principles have strayed far from conservatism. genuineoriginal

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by George Affleck View Post
                                We agree on the faith/noun/gift but it seems you are saying that faith, not the person, subsequently performs the believing.
                                I think I would disagree - if that was your position. It seems to me that the person, having received faith as a gift, will use it; not that it will use itself independent of the individual's will.

                                Nevertheless, I am willing to listen to reason - something, I have found, that you possess by the truckload...
                                This is all regarding the general topic of Greek anarthrous nouns; a grammatical construct that is absolutely missing from English and most other languages. I’m convinced it’s one of the premiere reasons God inspired the use of Greek for the New Testament through its human authorship.

                                In English, nouns are referred to by either the definite article (the, this, that) or indefinite article (a, an). These are very simple distinctions for basic specificity of items. The definite article particularizes in a way that highlights a specific object over many/all such objects.

                                Greek nouns are all innately anarthrous, which most overarchingly means “unsegmented”; and the anarthrous form of the noun refers to the qualities, characteristics, and functional activities of the noun. This generally designates the state of being for the noun, referring to all its many aspects and facets.

                                An example would be “table”. In Greek, the default noun construct refers to “table-ness”, and broadly always refers to every possible attribute that could be ascribed to any table of any kind for any use.

                                Tables are generally utilized to hold certain things up. A dining table, for instance, is utilized to support various place settings of dishes and utensils and beverage containers, along with any number of prepared food dishes. A dining table would then be performing certain passive forms of action, but a table is never referred to as “tabling” when holding up things it was designed to support for usage.

                                This is a table’s functional activity, which is an aspect or facet of its “table-ness”. The table isn’t actively “doing” anything. It’s static, not dynamic. There is no economy of action being overtly accomplished by a table when it is exhibiting its functional activity as a table. There is no verb here. Only the noun and all its qualitative considerations.

                                The same is true for faith. It’s an anarthrous noun like all other Greek nouns. It’s the thing that comes out of the message/report in Romans 10:17 that is also a noun (but is almost universally misunderstood as a verb by English speakers).

                                “So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Hearing is a NOUN in both instances in this verse. It is NOT a verb indicating actING or resulting actION/S. It’s rendered as “report” (in the KJV and others) in the previous verse, but “hearing” in v17. More explicitly it is “the thing heard”, just as faith is “the thing believed”.

                                Faith is the confident assurance and persuasion that comes out of the thing heard as the thing believed. And faith is the anarthrous noun that has all internal functional activity for believING. Faith is the thing given by God so that when we “have” it we can then believe because faith has the functional activity we need to accomplish the act of believING.

                                We cannot believe without the faith itself. Faith has all believING within it, for belief (faith) is that which comes out of the thing heard as the thing believed. By man “having” faith, he then can function according to the funcional activity of the thing he has.

                                An example would be a person and a cell phone. A person cannot make a call on a cellular network without “having” a cell phone. The cell phone has all the internal functional hardware and software to make calls, so if someone “has” a cell phone they can make a call. But without the thing that does the calling, man cannot make any cell phone calls. It’s impossible.

                                The same is true of an axe and a tree. Man cannot chop down a tree unless he has an axe (or other implement). So it IS man chopping down a tree, but it’s the axe that is the thing man has to chop down the tree. There must be an axe or man cannot accomplish the action.

                                Without faith as the confident assurance and persuasion as the thing believed, man cannot believe. So the internal functional activity of faith is that which does the believING, but it is man who HAS the faith that believes. So man indeed believes, but only because he has faith.

                                Make no mistake, faith has all the latent internal functional activity for believING, and man does not. Man must be given faith by God for man to believe. Man only believes because he has faith. And faith in all these instances is articular. It is THE faith, not just “a” faith.

                                Anyone who has been confidently assured and persuaded by a message/report that came by any word/s has “a” faith. But THE faith is the thing that comes out of THE message/report which came by means of THE very Rhema of God.

                                The quality of the rhema is the means of the message/report as the thing heard. And out of that will come a commensurate quality of faith that will either be THE faith (by God’s Rhema) or “another” faith (by whatever other rhema).

                                Of course man believes. But man only believes because THE faith has the internal functional activity of believING within it, and that man can then thus believe.
                                Ecclesia reformata et semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei
                                “The Church reformed and always reforming, according to the Word of God.”

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