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REPORT: God's plan of salvation

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  • Originally posted by Nihilo View Post
    No it's not. This is a cop-out.
    Huge straw man fallacy since the Church does not believe in nor teach the belief in more than One Maker. He is the Trinity. Three Persons, One Maker.
    God is spirit.
    Oh! So, God is Spirit, isn't It? Which one, God the Father, God the son or God the Holy Ghost? That's what I take as a straw man fallacy. Sorry Nihilo, but you guys, live all on denial; perhaps to keep the credit with the Church. From reading the "Suma Theologica by Thomas Aquinas I saw no difference in the saying that "There is no salvation in the Catholic Church. This is as equally illogical as the Trinity is.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ben Masada View Post
      If you read Isaiah 43:1-3, the Lord our God is our only Redeemer. It means that Jesus performed no act of redemption. Also Jeremiah and Ezekiel say in the Tanach no one is allowed to die for the sins of another. It is only obvious that Jesus would not contradict God's Words. The only Scriptures Jesus always referred to as the Word of God, as you must know, was the Tanach. Jesus never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.
      Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
      Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
      Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
      Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
      Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

      Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

      Isaiah says the same things.

      Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
      Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
      Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
      Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
      Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
      Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
      Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
      Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
      Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
      Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
      Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

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      • [QUOTE=iamaberean;4687418][FONT=Courier New]
        Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
        Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
        Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
        Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
        Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
        We are all aware that sacrifices were not meant to make us perfect. That's the role of the Law. They were used as shadows of things to come. Neither sacrifices of animals nor of a man's body was never commanded by the Lord. (Jer. 7:22)

        Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Isaiah says the same things.Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. Isa 53:3 [B]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter[/U], and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: [B]for the transgression of my people was he stricken. Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
        Now, Iamaberean, all your struggle to understand Isaiah 53 can be strongly minimized if you read Psalm 44:9-24, the Psalmist must have read Isaiah 53 and explained by using the plural to mean the ten Tribes of Israel versus the Tribe of Judah. And every thing happened when the Lord rejected the Tabernacle of Joseph aka the North Kingdom of Israel and confirmed Judah to remain as a People before the Lord forever according to His promise to David that his Tribe, Judah would remain as a lamp forever in Jerusalem. (I Kings 11:36)
        And the rejection of Israel so that Judah be confirmed as the one to remain forever as a People before the Lord. (Psalm 78:67-70) If this is not enough to understand, select individual verses and it will be my pleasure to discuss it with you. With such a big post as this of yous, it is impossible to go down into the detailes.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Nihilo View Post
          What is it called when your Temple is utterly ruined and ground into powder and you don't rebuild it for going on 2,000 years?...
          I call it a combination of Christian antisemitism and Muslim arrogance.

          I suspect that the existence of a Jewish State today is theologically inconvenient for you. So it goes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by webby View Post
            The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

            Who needs the gift
            The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

            A price to be paid
            The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

            Payment in full
            But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

            Salvation
            However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

            Putting it all together
            The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.
            This promotes Salvation by works, conditioned on the sinner, what he or she does, this is a false way of salvation !
            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

            Charles Spurgeon !

            Comment


            • Originally posted by chair View Post
              I call it a combination of Christian antisemitism and Muslim arrogance.
              Then you are faithless.
              Originally posted by chair View Post
              I suspect that the existence of a Jewish State today is theologically inconvenient for you.
              My only offering, is that Abraham actually hailed from Iraq.

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              • Originally posted by Nihilo View Post
                Then you are faithless.
                Nope. Think again.
                Originally posted by Nihilo View Post
                My only offering, is that Abraham actually hailed from Iraq.
                If that is what you come up with, then the Jewish State is theologically inconvenient for you, as I suspected.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by chair View Post
                  Nope. Think again.

                  If that is what you come up with, then the Jewish State is theologically inconvenient for you, as I suspected.
                  There has to be a separation between religious belief and the state. I don't think it's theology, but politics that's the block.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Nihilo View Post
                    There has to be a separation between religious belief and the state. I don't think it's theology, but politics that's the block.
                    1. I was referring to the common belief, that apparently you hold, that the downtrodden state of the Jews proves that the Jews are mistaken in their faith.
                    2. The modern state of Israel is not a theocracy, though it doesn't have complete separation of Church and State as the US claims to have. Outside of the US, the is fairly common.

                    Comment


                    • The Temple will be rebuilt shortly and blood sacrifices resumed.
                      Judaism was "rebuilt" after 70AD to eliminate the necessity of blood-sacrifices.
                      Judaism will return to its "roots" in obedience to Moses, before Messiah will come.

                      You can "take that to the bank".

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                      • Can a dead man accept a gift? (Eph2:1).

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                        • Originally posted by beameup View Post
                          The Temple will be rebuilt shortly and blood sacrifices resumed.
                          Judaism was "rebuilt" after 70AD to eliminate the necessity of blood-sacrifices.
                          Judaism will return to its "roots" in obedience to Moses, before Messiah will come.

                          You can "take that to the bank".
                          The Jews were given another opportunity to repent and turn to Christ by the apostles after Jesus ascension (Acts1-7). Once again, as with Jesus, this call was rejected by the same leaders who crucified Jesus. The apostle Paul makes it very clear that there is no special place or role for Israel today(Rom 9-11). The chosen jews will be called to faith in Christ, just like the chosen Gentiles. When the full number of the chosen are called then all Israel will have been saved.
                          The chosen from the jews and gentiles are the true Israel. The new covenant has nothing to do with a jewish temple, blood sacrifices or any such thing that belonged under the old covenant(Heb 1-13).

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                          • Whatever happened to the 'call of God'? God calls dead sinners to faith in Christ. God's calling is the missing truth in the plan of salvation today. Dead sinners cannot accept any gift from God. First God calls them to life (new birth) and out of this new birth they have faith in Christ. Only God's calling gives the glory to God for salvation, but the very popular 'accept Christ gospel' is the product of man's pride wanting to exalt his 'free choice'.

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                            • It looks like you have never read, or understood the letter to the Hebrews. Of course some jews can build a temple and offer sacrifices. But this enterprise would not be of God, rather it would be a dead work of man.
                              Such an activity would be the result of patriotism and misguided zeal.

                              Comment


                              • Dead sinners(Eph2:1) cannot accept any gift of salvation. Today many have forgotten about the call of God that makes 'dead sinners' alive, like Lazarus, but spiritually. Whatever happened to repentance? The whole plan of salvation is for the praise of God and his glorious grace. If anyone's salvation depends on their accepting God's gift then God is robbed of his glory and the 'dead sinner' is exalted. Anyone's salvation is totally the work of God: Father,Son and Holy Spirit in complete unity of purpose.

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