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Jesus Christ, the Firstborn of Creation, Who Was First To Be Birthed into Existence

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  • Jesus Christ, the Firstborn of Creation, Who Was First To Be Birthed into Existence

    This study explains shows, contrary to popular teaching, the scriptures that teach that Jesus Christ was created. This study also explains, that in spite of him being created, why he is still called God, why he existed in the beginning, and how he was able to create the world. The study can be found here, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2016/10/05...nto-existence/ . Let us commence a discussion on this study in this thread.

  • #2
    It is false.
    The Son was not created.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Tambora View Post
      It is false.
      The Son was not created.
      Then demonstrate it in scripture. I have shown through scripture that this is not so.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
        Then demonstrate it in scripture. I have shown through scripture that this is not so.
        No you haven't.
        There is no scripture that says the Son was created.

        We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
        They already know monsters exist.
        We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tambora View Post
          It is false.
          The Son was not created.
          Originally posted by Tambora View Post
          No you haven't.
          There is no scripture that says the Son was created.

          Comment


          • #6
            In scripture we see various meanings to the term 'firstborn'. It can mean the person is the first child in a family. It can also be a title of preeminence, as it was with David. He was not the first child, but in Psalm 89, God called him firstborn. (Also see Jer. 31:9 and Gen. 41:51,52). Yes... Jesus has preeminence of all creation since He is the Creator. See Col. 1:15
            Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 6days View Post
              In scripture we see various meanings to the term 'firstborn'.
              Many of it being taken out of context. That's why it is important to know the basic of the whole context of the Bible.

              If you don't know the priority of God and Jesus' messages, you will take popular and worldly doctrines. It is safe and gives you false sense of security.
              If you want to be true to God and Jesus, abandon any kind of violence at all cost. By advocating any kind of violence, you are misrepresenting Christianity.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                No you haven't.
                There is no scripture that says the Son was created.
                To be called a "son" implies to be created. Why do you think he is called the firstborn of creation? He was first to be born, which is why he existed in the beginning with God.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
                  To be called a "son" implies to be created.
                  No it does not.


                  Why do you think he is called the firstborn of creation? He was first to be born, which is why he existed in the beginning with God.
                  The Son is called 'firstborn' because it can mean 'preeminence'.
                  Just as Israel [Ex 4:22] and Ephraim [Jer 31:9], and David [Ps 89:27] were called 'firstborn'.
                  None of those 3 were the 1st in sequence of birth, so it is obvious that scripture does NOT show us that 'firstborn' has to always carry the connotation of being 'first' in sequence as in 1, 2, 3.

                  We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                  They already know monsters exist.
                  We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
                    Then demonstrate it in scripture. I have shown through scripture that this is not so.
                    Let us look at this verse which speaks of the appearing of the Lord Jesus, our great God and Savior:
                    "...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

                    The following passage speaks of us looking for that appearance and the "glory" which we will see will be the Lord Jesus' "glorious body":
                    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).

                    The following verse is also speaking of the same "appearance" and the same "glory":
                    "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).

                    The following passage desribes this same appearance as a "hope":
                    "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure
                    "
                    (1 Jn.3:2).

                    So the 'hope" and the "glory" in the following verse is referring to the glorious body in which we will see the Lord Jesus when He will appear:
                    "...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

                    That is why Paul refers to that glory as belonging to the Lord Jesus, our great God and Savior.

                    since the Lord Jesus is God then it is obvious that He was not created. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
                      To be called a "son" implies to be created....
                      Rather than get your info from heretical websites... you should use God's Word.
                      Psalm 2:7 New World Translation "Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father"
                      Heb. 1:5 New World Translation " to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?
                      (God's Word specifically says the angels were created yet God does not say "You are my son" to angels)
                      Last edited by 6days; March 27th, 2017, 10:48 AM.
                      Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                        No it does not.


                        The Son is called 'firstborn' because it can mean 'preeminence'.
                        Just as Israel [Ex 4:22] and Ephraim [Jer 31:9], and David [Ps 89:27] were called 'firstborn'.
                        None of those 3 were the 1st in sequence of birth, so it is obvious that scripture does NOT show us that 'firstborn' has to always carry the connotation of being 'first' in sequence as in 1, 2, 3.
                        That's because you do not understand who Israel is first among, who Ephraim is first among, or who the Psalm is referring to as first among. You picked out these verses at random to try to disprove that firstborn means born first out of a certain group. God does not speak arbitrarily nor unwisely, so if he speaks of someone being a firstborn, then rest assured they are a firstborn among a group that you have not yet identified.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 6days View Post
                          Rather than get your info from heretical websites... you should use God's Word.
                          Psalm 2:7 New World Translation "Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father"
                          Heb. 1:5 New World Translation " to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”?
                          (God's Word specifically says the angels were created yet God does not say "You are my son" to angels)
                          To angels he does not declare that specific scripture, but elsewhere in scripture the angels are indeed declared to also be sons of God, "...you are all gods, sons of the most High...", "...and the sons of God saw the daughters of men..."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
                            Let us look at this verse which speaks of the appearing of the Lord Jesus, our great God and Savior:
                            "...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

                            The following passage speaks of us looking for that appearance and the "glory" which we will see will be the Lord Jesus' "glorious body":
                            "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).

                            The following verse is also speaking of the same "appearance" and the same "glory":
                            "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).

                            The following passage desribes this same appearance as a "hope":
                            "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure
                            "
                            (1 Jn.3:2).

                            So the 'hope" and the "glory" in the following verse is referring to the glorious body in which we will see the Lord Jesus when He will appear:
                            "...while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

                            That is why Paul refers to that glory as belonging to the Lord Jesus, our great God and Savior.

                            since the Lord Jesus is God then it is obvious that He was not created. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.
                            Do you not know that the elect will also be glorified as Jesus Christ was glorified?

                            Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear. (Matthew 13:43 [NIV])

                            For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30 [NIV])

                            Therefore, glorification does not relate with never being created. It relates with receiving the ability to radiate light, which is what "glorified" means. Even Moses was "glorified", hence why he had to put a veil over his face, because the Israelites feared him. I have a specific study on this here, http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/03/06...-be-glorified/ .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by cgaviria View Post
                              To angels he does not declare that specific scripture, but elsewhere in scripture the angels are indeed declared to also be sons of God, "...you are all gods, sons of the most High...", "...and the sons of God saw the daughters of men..."
                              Yes.... we are sons of God. But God asks "to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”

                              The word 'son' has nothing to do with being created...contrary to what you said. Neither, you, me or any angel is ever called "the Son of God". It is a title.
                              Likewise...if you studied scripture instead of heretical websites, you would see that 'firstborn' is also used as a title...and nothing to do with being born or created.
                              Without Genesis, absolutely nothing makes sense in all of Scripture.

                              Comment

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