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  • Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
    Oh really?

    Though we have freewill it is the Will of GOD that allows it and indeed gives it.

    Do you really think GOD doesn't know what HIS creation will be used for ultimately, or where it will end up?

    Did GOD know that Job would be without fault before HE instructed satan to inflict terrible grief upon him? Though satan understood not; all things ultimately work by the will of GOD.

    Does GOD know the very elect cannot be ultimately swayed? And if HIS elect do what is known by GOD then will not all things be reconciled to GOD in HIS time.

    Do you presume that GOD doesn't know HE is just and merciful. Is not even Egypt to be turned back to GOD?

    peace
    God doesn't know this for any specific person in advance before they exist.

    Matthew 24:24 KJV
    (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    Whether it is possible or not lies with us.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
      God's "elect" are called for a purpose, they are called to perform a task. The "elect" are not elected to be saved. They are elected to perform a role. It has nothing to do with salvation.

      For example, Israel is God's elect lady, yet most of Israel died and went straight to Hell. What happened after the twelve spies returned? Most of Israel died in the wilderness in unbelief. Yet God had elected them out of Egypt. They were to be His people.

      So yes, the "elect" can be swayed, and very easily so. Just because they are the elect does not mean they will be saved.

      God knows that those who reject Him will be separated from Him for all of eternity. He knows that those who accept Him will be with Him forever. But He wouldn't have to blot out names out of the Book of Life. (Note: not to be confused with the "Book of Life of the Lamb"), because they would already be blotted out.

      Something for you to consider: Revelation 21:27 states that no one shall enter into the New Jerusalem except those who have their name written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

      Did you catch that? Written.
      Did God say when (in time) this blotting out takes place?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
        A point is not a side. You can make anything "possible" if you define 2 + 2 = 5. A triangle has 3 sides and only 3 sides by definition.
        And limited by perception.

        If a point is not a side then a pyramid observed in reality could be said to have five sides or four sides and a bottom. However; if a pcture was taken at the right angle or if a simple drawing was made of the pyramid then it to truthfully could be said to be a triangle. It is limited by the perception of the one viewing the object or rather the level of reality they choose to live in. If you cannot see that a pyramid is too a triangle then fine; I'll leave it alone.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
          That's the "wall of text" attack I was mentioning earlier. The user of [ spoiler ] [ / spoiler ] tags can help, also good if you boldface the part that needs emphasis...
          If I knew of a means to do either of those things then I would. Please excuse my ignorance

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
            Thank you, you just admitted that illogic exists. The next step is to admit that there is such a thing as the truly impossible, which is the practical application of this example.

            For example, God cannot force someone to love him against their will. That's a contradiction of terms. Just like the triangle with five (or five hundred) sides.
            I triangle can be comprised of a nearly infinite amount of smaller triangles.

            As far as GOD forcing love; we have free will; HE doesn't force us to do anything, but can cause a change of heart leading one love GOD though it was never their will exacty.

            Little word games and parlor tricks arent the things of GOD. Not that they couldn't be if that was the Will of GOD. thankfully the will of GOD is synonymous with truth. Which brings me to a conclusion.

            The one thing I recall GOD not being "able" to do is lie.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
              God cannot know what a free willed creature will ultimately choose before that creature comes into existence.
              More nonsense.

              GOD created all things and knows them utterly and fully. Make no mistake; HE knows the the will of man before they are even conceived in the womb. Such is the case when one designs and builds not only a thing it knows, but a thing formed in it likeness. If it is too responsible for the placement of that thing within surroundings that it too made then it is safe to say that the designer of said articles or things would know what those things designed in his image within his surroundings would do though they have freedom.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                The definition of free will says that God cannot know that for us.

                Genesis 22:11-12 KJV
                (11) And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
                (12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

                One could reason that perhaps God tested Abraham so that Abraham would know that he feared God, but what God actually said was that this was needed so that God would know that Abraham feared God.
                All things written in the Bible are for our sake.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                  I dismiss Anthony Buzzard because I am familiar with him already, from more than one occasion. Do I deprecate him because he disagrees with me? No, but I do have a little experience seeing what else he says. My unsupportable doctrines? You've entered in here picking a fight without knowing what's what. I don't try to support official Trinity doctrine. Although it may have some use, it's not a perfect model, nor do I support conformity through aggression.

                  Why are people ignoring your post? Because it wasn't relevant to the ongoing discussion. You weren't responding to anyone's question, and you merely slapped a wall of text from someone that won't answer any question you put to him. You used a statement and a rhetorical question, not anything that required a response.

                  How do I interpret John 17:3? Jesus is that True God, just as when I reach out my arm to catch my daughter from falling, I am her only father, and my arm is what I sent to catch her, and yet my arm is still very much me in every way. I interpret John 17:3 in the same context as the rest of the gospel of John, including "the Word was God" and Jesus as "My Lord and my God." I don't fight and despise God as he came to us for our benefit.
                  You talk down to people and don't explain what you're thinking. You dismiss Buzzard because you're "familiar with him." OK, can you give a bit more info on what it is that you don't like about him?

                  Whatever I have posted is relevant to the ongoing discussion. I made points about the trinity doctrine which could have been responded to by some member here who has one or two thoughts that go below the surface. I don't "slap" a wall of text up just to busy myself. I carefully choose points from the discussion in the book and present them to the members here to get their thoughts on them. I have seen plenty of discussions about some author's work or some saint's ideas, etc.

                  Yes, I say again, "YOUR unsupportable doctrines," though of course they are, unfortunately, shared by others. This has got to be the most ridiculous idea that I have run across today---that Jesus is somehow saying that HE is the true God by saying to the Father, "YOU are the only true God." What kind of mental gymnastics do you do to convince yourself of that??

                  You take two ambiguous verses out of John and use them to support your incredible theology, while ignoring HUNDREDS of other verses! How can that be? Those two verses are not "the rest of the gospel of John." They are the EXCEPTION to the rest of John. The one verse that cannot be fully explained is Thomas' exclamation. ONE VERSE. The rest can be clearly and nicely explained. John 1:1 has been taken apart ad nauseum and shown to be actually an attempt by John to differentiate between God and the Word. The God whom the Word, Jesus, was with is accompanied by a definite article which identifies that "God" as THE God---the one and only almighty God. The god whom the Word is is not accompanied by ANY article, so therefore it is understood to be someone OTHER THAN the "God" that he was with. That is the way the rules go, from Greek to English. The rules of grammar dictate that it makes a difference who has the definite article and who is referred to WITHOUT the definite article.

                  The conclusion can only be that the Word was NOT the God that he was with.

                  I love God and His Son so much that I can't stand someone saying untrue things about them. The only "fighting" I do is FOR God and Jesus, with the sword of the Spirit, the Bible.

                  Ephesians 6:11-17


                  THE FATHER is the true God, and Jesus couldn't have been more clear. (Read all of John chapter 17.)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                    God doesn't know this for any specific person in advance before they exist.

                    Matthew 24:24 KJV
                    (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

                    Whether it is possible or not lies with us.
                    What?

                    So you think the elect can actually be turned from the Will of GOD? the elect of GOD? really?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Rosenritter View Post
                      God doesn't know this for any specific person in advance before they exist.

                      Matthew 24:24 KJV
                      (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

                      Whether it is possible or not lies with us.
                      It would say "it is" as opposed to "if it were" if that were the case, but it is not.

                      Comment


                      • Pops,

                        I am trying to reply back to you in private messages, but it will not go through because you don't have room for it and you have to delete some of your mail.
                        Oh how I love the Word of God!

                        Don't just hear the word and believe it---do it.

                        Comment


                        • Re. Rosenritter's post #14751:

                          Nonsense. I John 5:7 does not harmonize with the rest of John's writing. It is NOT "plainly supported" by any kind of evidence. In fact, it DISRUPTS the grammar of the passage. What ancient witnesses far predate the earliest mss. that we have access to? Name them.

                          Who else is "picking their side regardless of the evidence"? You are a piece of work. That final smug statement of yours applies beautifully to you.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by KingdomRose View Post
                            You talk down to people and don't explain what you're thinking. You dismiss Buzzard because you're "familiar with him." OK, can you give a bit more info on what it is that you don't like about him?

                            Whatever I have posted is relevant to the ongoing discussion. I made points about the trinity doctrine which could have been responded to by some member here who has one or two thoughts that go below the surface. I don't "slap" a wall of text up just to busy myself. I carefully choose points from the discussion in the book and present them to the members here to get their thoughts on them. I have seen plenty of discussions about some author's work or some saint's ideas, etc.

                            Yes, I say again, "YOUR unsupportable doctrines," though of course they are, unfortunately, shared by others. This has got to be the most ridiculous idea that I have run across today---that Jesus is somehow saying that HE is the true God by saying to the Father, "YOU are the only true God." What kind of mental gymnastics do you do to convince yourself of that??

                            You take two ambiguous verses out of John and use them to support your incredible theology, while ignoring HUNDREDS of other verses! How can that be? Those two verses are not "the rest of the gospel of John." They are the EXCEPTION to the rest of John. The one verse that cannot be fully explained is Thomas' exclamation. ONE VERSE. The rest can be clearly and nicely explained. John 1:1 has been taken apart ad nauseum and shown to be actually an attempt by John to differentiate between God and the Word. The God whom the Word, Jesus, was with is accompanied by a definite article which identifies that "God" as THE God---the one and only almighty God. The god whom the Word is is not accompanied by ANY article, so therefore it is understood to be someone OTHER THAN the "God" that he was with. That is the way the rules go, from Greek to English. The rules of grammar dictate that it makes a difference who has the definite article and who is referred to WITHOUT the definite article.

                            The conclusion can only be that the Word was NOT the God that he was with.

                            I love God and His Son so much that I can't stand someone saying untrue things about them. The only "fighting" I do is FOR God and Jesus, with the sword of the Spirit, the Bible.

                            Ephesians 6:11-17


                            THE FATHER is the true God, and Jesus couldn't have been more clear. (Read all of John chapter 17.)
                            Amen


                            Sent from my iPad using TOL
                            Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

                            Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

                            Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by God's Truth View Post
                              What don't you get about the one and only God coming in the flesh as a Man?
                              What don't YOU get about the one true God SENDINGHis Son to come to earth as a man?

                              "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16, KJV)


                              "He that receiveth you, receiveth me; and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that SENT me." (Matthew 10:40, KJV)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by popsthebuilder View Post
                                If I knew of a means to do either of those things then I would. Please excuse my ignorance
                                1. Remove the spaces from [ spoiler ] and [ / spoiler ] and put those on either side of the text. It's like the [ quote ] and [ / quote ] tags. I have to type them like that here or they will work for real.

                                For example,
                                Spoiler
                                This is inside the tags now. I figured this out from looking at the quoted text from a post by Lon.

                                2. You do not know how to use boldface? Are you using a phone? If you're using the normal web interface you highlight the text and use Control-B or you can highlight the text and use the big "B" button at the top of the text entry place.

                                It's good for everyone if we can stress each other less by making what we say easier on the eyes and easier to understand.

                                Comment

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