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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • bibleverse2
    replied
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

    2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    so Paradise is not future . . .
    That's right, in the sense that paradise is not only in the future, just as the third heaven is not only in the future. That is, there are presently, and will be in the future, three literal heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The first heaven is the sky, the atmosphere in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The second heaven is outer space where the sun, moon and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2) and so it is beyond outer space in the sense of it being in a higher (a fourth) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus Christ ascended there in His physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39) and the apostle Paul said that he could have visited there in his mortal physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their mortal physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5) and God's future, Two Witnesses will be taken up there in their mortal physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

    In the third heaven there is currently a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) and a New Heaven (a new first heaven/atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the third heaven to live with Christians on the New Earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which Christians ascribe to heaven. So what Christians think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the New Earth.

    Currently, the third heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4), and paradise is where obedient Christians go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So obedient Christians go to the third heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7), and the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when obedient Christians go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

    The earth's third heaven could be high above the north pole. Compare the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV. Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can be explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's third heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

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  • Ktoyou
    replied
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Diced apples for me, please!

    さいの目に切ったリンゴをください。
    those too, if sliced small.

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  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by Ktoyou View Post
    I would like raisins.
    Diced apples for me, please!

    さいの目に切ったリンゴをください。

    Leave a comment:


  • Ktoyou
    replied
    Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
    Oatmeal is nutritious and delicious if prepared properly and topped with your favorite toppings

    Butter, cinnamon, and brown sugar works well for me
    I would like raisins.

    Leave a comment:


  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again way 2 go,Most of the visions that the prophets experienced were very real, and take for example Isaiah's interaction in the vision of Isaiah 6 and Ezekiel's description and measurement of the future Temple as if the Temple was already built and he was moving within it, or that he was actually transported into the beginning of the 1000 years.
    no.

    Paul said caught up into Paradise but said nothing of what was heard.

    2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ fourteen years before (whether in the body, I do not know; or outside of the body, I do not know; God knows) such a one was caught up to the third Heaven.
    2Co 12:3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or outside of the body, I do not know; God knows),
    2Co 12:4 that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not allowed for a man to utter.

    As for the development of the immortal soul theory or Platonism within the early believers, we can firstly compare the Athenians rejection of resurrection, the Corinthians denial of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15, and they most probably returned to some form of Platoism similar to when some suggested that the resurrection was already past, that is the only resurrection was when the immortal souls went to heaven when they died. The Bible teaching is the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns and the granting of eternal life to the faithful.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Jesus taught the continued existence of the spirit after death , you should take that up with Jesus.

    Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

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  • TrevorL
    replied
    Greetings again way 2 go,
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    never said that but paradise exist now.
    2Co 12:4[/URL] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. your whole premise was paradise is future which is destroyed liar
    Most of the visions that the prophets experienced were very real, and take for example Isaiah's interaction in the vision of Isaiah 6 and Ezekiel's description and measurement of the future Temple as if the Temple was already built and he was moving within it, or that he was actually transported into the beginning of the 1000 years.

    As for the development of the immortal soul theory or Platonism within the early believers, we can firstly compare the Athenians rejection of resurrection, the Corinthians denial of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15, and they most probably returned to some form of Platoism similar to when some suggested that the resurrection was already past, that is the only resurrection was when the immortal souls went to heaven when they died. The Bible teaching is the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns and the granting of eternal life to the faithful.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    Leave a comment:


  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again way 2 go, The difference with our perspectives is that you believe that the “third heaven” is the third layer,
    never said that but paradise exist now.

    2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    your whole premise was paradise is future which is destroyed
    Paul was either transported in vision or body into this period beyond the 1000 years,
    liar

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  • TrevorL
    replied
    Greetings again way 2 go,
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    your whole premise was paradise is future which is destroyed by the following verses
    2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    The difference with our perspectives is that you believe that the “third heaven” is the third layer, and I am not sure what you define as the first and second, and where you support this claim. My understanding of the third heaven is that it is the third in a series. We read of a new heaven and earth in the following:
    Isaiah 65:17 (KJV): For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor comee into mind.
    This speaks of a new heavens and earth, and this is not the destruction of the present heaven and earth but the establishment of the Kingdom of God, superseding the previous order of things, the first heaven and earth. At the end of the 1000 years there will be another heaven and earth, where there will be no more death, and the Kingdom will be delivered back to God the Father after Jesus has subdued all things. Now we have many prophecies of what the Kingdom will be like during the 1000 years, but little mention of the period beyond. Paul was either transported in vision or body into this period beyond the 1000 years, but was forbidden to reveal the details.
    so Paradise is not future & the criminal went to paradise that day
    (MKJV) Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
    (ERV) Then Jesus said to him, "I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise."
    (ESV) And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
    (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    (WEB) Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
    (YLT) and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
    As stated previously, you will find many translations that support the above placement of the comma, which does not appear in the Greek, but Rotherham and Ethelbert Bullinger have placed the comma to show that Jesus is talking about the Paradise of the Bible, the restored Garden of Eden, during the 1000 years and beyond.

    The paradise of the corrupt catholic church was introduced by the early church fathers with their background in Greek philosophy and the teachings of Plato. The teaching of the Bible is resurrection of the body, not immortal souls going to heaven at death. If the faithful are already in paradise, why return them to the earth to be combined with their bodies and be judged and then rewarded? Compare Paul's hope 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    Last edited by TrevorL; May 6th, 2019, 03:53 PM.

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  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again way 2 go,I had to search to find out what version is represented by “LITV” and it is Green’s Literal Version. As such it is only another translation, and as such it is only another attempt to translate this passage. Bullinger is also skilled at Hebrew and Greek and he states that “I say unto you today, you will be with me in Paradise” is a valid translation and he prefers this. There may not be many other translations that support this view because most of these support the idea of the immortal soul and going to heaven when you die.
    your whole premise was paradise is future which is destroyed by the following verses

    2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    so Paradise is not future & the criminal went to paradise that day

    (MKJV) Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
    (ERV) Then Jesus said to him, "I promise you, today you will be with me in paradise."
    (ESV) And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
    (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    (WEB) Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
    (YLT) and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

    Leave a comment:


  • TrevorL
    replied
    Greetings again way 2 go,
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    : (LITV) Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.
    Jesus answered the criminal with: I won't have to remember you later when I come into my kingdom because Today you will be with Me in Paradise.
    I had to search to find out what version is represented by “LITV” and it is Green’s Literal Version. As such it is only another translation, and as such it is only another attempt to translate this passage. Bullinger is also skilled at Hebrew and Greek and he states that “I say unto you today, you will be with me in Paradise” is a valid translation and he prefers this. There may not be many other translations that support this view because most of these support the idea of the immortal soul and going to heaven when you die.

    Rotherham is another Hebrew and Greek scholar and the following is his translation:
    Luke 23:43 (Rotherham): And he said unto him – Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise.
    So I suggest the position of the comma is needed to be determined by true Bible teaching and by the immediate context. I suggest that Bullinger and Rotherham are correct here.
    2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    I will defer comment on this passage except to say I believe the first heaven is the Mosaic Heaven and Earth, the second is the 1000 years, and the third is after the 1000 years.

    I would like to comment on the following which I quoted before:
    Ezekiel 36:35 (KJV): And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
    Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


    Now although “the tree of life” here is figurative language it is based upon the events of the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life and live for ever.
    Genesis 3:22–24 (KJV): 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
    Adam and Eve were sent out of the Garden and direct access to the tree of life and thus did not live for ever. The faithful amongst the Ephesians were promised access to the tree of life in the future, and then they would live for ever.

    The promise to the next congregation was similar. Some of them were going to be persecuted and die, but Jesus would give them a crown of life, inferring that they were not already living for ever:
    Revelation 2:8–11 (KJV): 8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Jesus appeals to his own death and resurrection as a basis for their hope of a future life in the Kingdom, similar to what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8, a crown of righteousness, a crown of life. And note in both of these letters to Ephesus and Smyrna (for Pneuma’s benefit) the early development of the apostate catholic church, false apostles, synagogue of Satan.

    Kind regards
    Trevor

    Leave a comment:


  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again way 2 go,You insist on maintaining the KJV, but what I have suggested is a possible translation,


    (LITV) Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.
    Jesus answered the criminal with
    I won't have to remember you later when I come into my kingdom because Today you will be with Me in Paradise.

    As far as Paradise is concerned, it is the word for a garden or orchard, and please consider the following:
    Ezekiel 36:35 (KJV): And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
    Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


    2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    Leave a comment:


  • TrevorL
    replied
    Greetings again way 2 go,
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    I just read what is written To day shalt thou be with me in paradise
    the criminal asked to be remembered
    Jesus answered the criminal with I won't have to remember you later when I come into my kingdom because To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    that is a lie and you know it ,you are fooling yourself. Jesus said To day shalt thou be with me in paradise
    where we differ is i can read the truth as written and accept it & you pervert what is written so you can accept it
    You insist on maintaining the KJV, but what I have suggested is a possible translation, and this is also confirmed by Ethelbert Bullinger in his Companion Bible. As far as Paradise is concerned, it is the word for a garden or orchard, and please consider the following:
    Ezekiel 36:35 (KJV): And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
    Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


    Kind regards
    Trevor

    Leave a comment:


  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again way 2 go, I appreciate your perspective,
    I just read what is written
    To day shalt thou be with me in paradise
    but I consider that this is in answer to the request that Jesus would remember him when he returned from heaven to establish his kingdom upon the earth, the restored Garden of Eden, Paradise.
    the criminal asked to be remembered

    Jesus reassured him by not deferring the answer to that time
    Jesus answered the criminal with I won't have to remember you later when I come into my kingdom because To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    , but clearly stating that he would be remembered, and would find a place in the kingdom.
    that is a lie and you know it ,you are fooling yourself.
    Jesus said To day shalt thou be with me in paradise

    The thief would thus be assured of his place, and would suffer for a short time in peace of mind with this conviction. Where we differ is our complete perspective of mortal or immortal souls, and the reward being after resurrection in the kingdom upon the earth or going to heaven when we die.
    where we differ is i can read the truth as written and accept it
    & you pervert what is written so you can accept it

    Leave a comment:


  • Aimiel
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again Aimiel,So Jesus went to Paradise with the thief on that day and three days later he left him until the Second Coming.
    On the day Jesus preached to those in Paradise: they were taken to Heaven.
    Are the good and bad in Paradise or only the good and the wicked are being burnt in hell like the Rich Man in the Parable.
    The latter, but Paradise is only used for those who haven't been presented with The Gospel.
    And when is the judgement seat to determine the fate of the good and bad, at death or the Second Coming 2 Timothy 4:1?
    Those in hell still await final judgement. Those in hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire, along with the Spirit of Death, the Spirit of Hell and Satan, himself, along with all the angels that he deceived.
    But Acts 2:31 says that the soul of Jesus was in "hell" or as I believe that this is teaching that his soul was in the grave.
    I believe that Jesus went to hell to flaunt His victory over the Powers, Principalities and Rulers of the Darkness of this World, making a show of them, openly.
    I do not accept your concepts of time.
    I'm not sure I do, either. It's a very complex subject and we really don't know how time works in the spirit realm, but when we get there, it will be understood completely.

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  • PneumaPsucheSoma
    replied
    Originally posted by TrevorL View Post
    Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma,This a repeat of our previous discussion. Another description of what you support is the corrupt catholic church and its many branches. It is not the Apostolic faith.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
    The Roman Catholic Church is not the Apostolic faith. Nor is your cult. Nor are your false doctrines.

    Leave a comment:

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