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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
    ...but what does the Bible actually say? Does it say that the penalty for sin is death? Or does it say the penalty for sin is eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever? Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says the wages of sin is.
    Death is the punishment human bodies receive for sin. The Second Death (ECT) is what souls receive at judgement. Being tormented in flames for ever and ever isn't life. It is constant death. It is punishment, not life. It is far more severe than we can begin to imagine.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Totton Linnet View Post
      Are you more knowledgable than Christ?
      No, do you think you are?


      He said these will depart into everlasting punishment.
      And I agree with him. This doesn't say that the everlasting punishment is everlasting torment. Are you more knowledgable than Christ? He said that they go to destruction. Matthew 7:13. So the everlasting punishment (at least according to Christ and little ol me, is to be destroyed and never remade.)

      Do you love sinners?
      Yes

      have you given your life, your blood for them?
      No, but I believe the one who has, and He said that they will perish, but all who believe in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life. John 3:16. I believe Him, why don't you believe Him too?

      surely you are easing them on their way to hell.
      I don't know what you mean by this. I tell everyone I meet that the wages of sin is death, and by trusting Jesus Christ they can have eternal life.

      Will God thank you for that?
      I don't know.

      Do you have any scripture that backs up your belief that the wicked will not perish but will rather live forever after they die in hell where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
        Death is the punishment human bodies receive for sin. The Second Death (ECT) is what souls receive at judgement. Being tormented in flames for ever and ever isn't life. It is constant death. It is punishment, not life. It is far more severe than we can begin to imagine.
        The second death is not eternal conscious torment. If it were, it would not be death. If they can feel the torment of the flames then they are not dead, they are alive. You are redefining words to fit your doctrine. That is the only way you can hold onto your doctrine. First you assume your doctrine is true, then you redefine the words of the bible to fit your doctrine. This is called eisegesis, reading your view into scripture. Exegesis is reading scripture and deriving your doctrine out of what scripture says. Let go of your preconceptions and read what scripture actually says. The wicked will perish and will be no more, because the wages of sin is death. The destruction of Sodom is an example of the coming destruction of the wicked on Judgment Day. The lake of fire is the second death. This is what scripture says.

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        • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
          The lake of fire is the second death. This is what scripture says.
          The Scripture also says that smoke ascends from their torment forever. Where there is smoke: there is fire. The fire does not go out. The torment does not cease. The smoke from the fire of their torment is eternally rising. It isn't going to change just because you don't like it. Scripture says it. Stop trying to deny it means what it says. You're in denial. That isn't healthy.
          "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

          If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

          Comment


          • Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


            Then:

            Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
            Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


            And a thousand years later, we find that the beast and false prophet have not been anihilated in the lake of fire, but are still there:


            Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


            hopou kai to thērion kai ho pseudoprophētēs- where are also the beast and the false prophet
            Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
            Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
              The Scripture also says that smoke ascends from their torment forever. Where there is smoke: there is fire. The fire does not go out. The torment does not cease. The smoke from the fire of their torment is eternally rising. It isn't going to change just because you don't like it. Scripture says it. Stop trying to deny it means what it says. You're in denial. That isn't healthy.
              i'm sorry, but I'm not in denial.

              The reason the smoke goes up, is because something is burned. The smoke rising indicates the destruction of the sinner, which coincidentally is just what the rest of the Bible says will happen to the unrepentant sinner.

              You are in denial, and you and I agree that denial is not healthy, so...Stop trying to deny what scripture says. The wages of sin is death.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by steko View Post
                Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


                Then:

                Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
                Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


                And a thousand years later, we find that the beast and false prophet have not been anihilated in the lake of fire, but are still there:


                Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


                hopou kai to thērion kai ho pseudoprophētēs- where are also the beast and the false prophet
                Do you find it best to take passages out of the Book o fRevelation and use them to interpret the rest of scripture?

                I find that important doctrines are re-iterated throughout scripture and not merely found in only one book.

                If you look at the passage you are referring to, Revelation 20:10, you can see that it doesn't say that people will be be burned alive in hell forever after they die. You brought up the greek, so let's look at it. καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

                As you can see from the greek, the devil (ὁ διάβολος), the beast (τὸ θηρίον), and the false prophet (ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης) are in the lake of fire. Don't forget that Rev 20:14 specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death. So those that worship the beast are tossed into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and destroyed there along with them. The beast and the false prophet represent institutions which are lead by the devil. This is saying they will be destroyed along with the devil. It is likely that the beast represents corrupt human government, and the false prophet represents corrupt religion. But it is risky to interpret these symbols since it seeems everyone interprets them differently. That's one more reason, by the way, to not just get your doctrine from the BOR.

                Edit: also, do not forget that Revelation 17:11 says that the beast goes to destruction.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                  i'm sorry, but I'm not in denial.
                  Yeah, you are. You deny Scriptural Truth. You deny obvious clues. You deny basic Christian tenets. Deny, deny, deny. Yup. Denial.
                  The reason the smoke goes up, is because something is burned.
                  Yup... eternal torment creates smoke, so smoke ascending eternally is what it is: evidence of eternal torment taking place.
                  The smoke rising indicates the destruction of the sinner, which coincidentally is just what the rest of the Bible says will happen to the unrepentant sinner.
                  But if they were not being tormented for eternity why would the smoke be spoken of as ascending eternally? Wouldn't it dissipate? Wouldn't it be recycled? Wouldn't it stop, eventually? It cannot though: since it is eternally rising.
                  You are in denial, and you and I agree that denial is not healthy, so...Stop trying to deny what scripture says. The wages of sin is death.
                  What am I denying? Show me anything you think I'm denying. I have shown you (even though you deny it). I won't do the same. I will admit to it, if you can show me anything you think I might be denying.
                  "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                  If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                    Yeah, you are. You deny Scriptural Truth. You deny obvious clues. You deny basic Christian tenets. Deny, deny, deny. Yup. Denial.Yup...
                    So you say. Do you have any proof? Or shall I just accept your word as gospel, so to speak? I don't deny scriptural truth. I believe the scriptures are accurate. Why don't we stick to scripture in this discussion instead of your faulty idea of my mental state? This seems uncomfortably close to an adhom fallacy to me. ButI've learned my lesson on that.

                    eternal torment creates smoke,
                    Does it? Burning things is what creates smoke, but I suppose that goes against your doctrine, so "where there's smoke, there's torment", at least in your mind.

                    so smoke ascending eternally is what it is: evidence of eternal torment taking place. But if they were not being tormented for eternity why would the smoke be spoken of as ascending eternally? Wouldn't it dissipate? Wouldn't it be recycled? Wouldn't it stop, eventually? It cannot though: since it is eternally rising.What am I denying?
                    Check to see how the phrase is used in the rest of scripture and you will have your answer.

                    Show me anything you think I'm denying. I have shown you (even though you deny it). I won't do the same. I will admit to it, if you can show me anything you think I might be denying.
                    John 3:16 says perish, Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death, over and over the bible promises eternal life only to those who have faith in Jesus Christ. By saying that the wicked do not perish, don't go to their death, and everyone gets eternal life in heaven or hell, you are denying these scriptures.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                      Do you have any proof?
                      Smoke ascending for ever and ever... torment continuing for ever and ever... that proves it, indeed. Do you deny that Scripture states that?
                      Burning things is what creates smoke, but I suppose that goes against your doctrine, so "where there's smoke, there's torment", at least in your mind.
                      It doesn't say, "Smoke of their destruction," though, does it?

                      Revelation 14:11
                      And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
                      Check to see how the phrase is used in the rest of scripture and you will have your answer.


                      John 3:16 says perish, Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death, over and over the bible promises eternal life only to those who have faith in Jesus Christ. By saying that the wicked do not perish, don't go to their death, and everyone gets eternal life in heaven or hell, you are denying these scriptures.
                      No, I admit they are going to their death. Souls are being tormented for ever and ever. That isn't life. Life is growth. Life is change. Life is learning. Life is beautiful. Look it up. Life is great. The first death is an end to our body. The Second Death is torment in the Lake of Fire. The Bible says so. It doesn't say: "They will be eliminated," It says they will be tormented for ever and ever. Please believe what It says. The Bible doesn't lie.
                      "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                      If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                        Smoke ascending for ever and ever... torment continuing for ever and ever... that proves it, indeed. Do you deny that Scripture states that?It doesn't say, "Smoke of their destruction," though, does it?

                        Revelation 14:11
                        And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.No, I admit they are going to their death. Souls are being tormented for ever and ever. That isn't life. Life is growth. Life is change. Life is learning. Life is beautiful. Look it up. Life is great. The first death is an end to our body. The Second Death is torment in the Lake of Fire. The Bible says so. It doesn't say: "They will be eliminated," It says they will be tormented for ever and ever. Please believe what It says. The Bible doesn't lie.
                        I typed out a long reply to this, and the computer lost it.

                        The bible does say that the wicked will be eliminated. Read Psalm 37:10
                        a little while, and the wicked will be no more;
                        though you look for them, they will not be found.

                        The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. The Bible doesn't say the second death is torment in the lake of fire. Why do you think it says the lake of fire is the second death? It is because the lake of fire is the second death. The first death is when a person dies. Then they are resurrected on Judgment Day, then they go to their second death. They have already died once, the second death is the final death.

                        Please believe what the Bible says, as you say, it doesn't lie. The wicked perish and are no more.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                          Death is separation, not cessation, in Scripture.
                          Yes.
                          "Contrast" may even be a better word to use than "separation", although both have the same concept and fit just as well.

                          Dead is in contrast to not dead.

                          Perished is in contrast to not perished.

                          Lost is in contrast to not lost.

                          Not saved is in contrast to saved.

                          Destroyed is in contrast to not destroyed.

                          Condemned is in contrast to not condemned.

                          etc.
                          etc.
                          etc.

                          All listed as red are essentially the same group of folks, and all listed as green are essentially the same group of folks.
                          And none of them mean "annihilation/ceased to exist".





                          Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                          Why don't you look up John 3:16 and tell me what it says? "All who believe in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life."

                          John 3 KJV
                          (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


                          "Perish" is the Greek verb ἀπόληται. And is translated in several ways: perish, lost, lose, die, etc.

                          2 Peter 3 KJV
                          (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
                          Obviously, the world still existed.



                          Luke 19 KJV
                          (10) For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
                          Obviously, Christ did not come to seek and to save that which no longer existed.


                          John 18 KJV
                          (14) Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.
                          Obviously, He did not cease to exist.


                          Your exegesis of the word ἀπόληται fails.

                          We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                          They already know monsters exist.
                          We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                            I typed out a long reply to this, and the computer lost it.
                            I'm sorry that happened. It's happened to me far too many times to count.
                            The bible does say that the wicked will be eliminated. Read Psalm 37:10
                            a little while, and the wicked will be no more;
                            though you look for them, they will not be found.
                            Well, I imagine they won'd be found, in the whole New Earth or New Heaven.
                            The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. The Bible doesn't say the second death is torment in the lake of fire. Why do you think it says the lake of fire is the second death? It is because the lake of fire is the second death. The first death is when a person dies. Then they are resurrected on Judgment Day, then they go to their second death. They have already died once, the second death is the final death.
                            The Bible says that they are cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death: to be tormented as Scripture explicitly states, for ever and ever.

                            Revelation 20:14
                            And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

                            Revelation 2:11
                            He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

                            The second death hurts. The first one doesn't hurt. It's just a shadow of the torment that is coming in the Lake of Fire (Second Death).
                            Please believe what the Bible says, as you say, it doesn't lie. The wicked perish and are no more.
                            I do believe what The Bible says:

                            Revelation 14:11
                            And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

                            No rest. Sorry, but if they were poofed out of existence they would be resting. God is Just. He doesn't give the wicked rest. He gives them ECT.
                            "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

                            If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Aimiel View Post
                              The Scripture also says that smoke ascends from their torment forever. Where there is smoke: there is fire. The fire does not go out. The torment does not cease. The smoke from the fire of their torment is eternally rising. It isn't going to change just because you don't like it. Scripture says it. Stop trying to deny it means what it says. You're in denial. That isn't healthy.
                              Exactly.

                              No fuel, no fire, no smoke.


                              Smoke ascending is a common descriptive way of describing the cries (prayers) of mankind to God throughout scripture.

                              No cries, no smoke.

                              The only way for the smoke to continually ascend is if the cries are continual.

                              We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
                              They already know monsters exist.
                              We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tambora View Post
                                John 3 KJV
                                (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


                                "Perish" is the Greek verb ἀπόληται. And is translated in several ways: perish, lost, lose, die, etc.

                                2 Peter 3 KJV
                                (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
                                Obviously, the world still existed.



                                Luke 19 KJV
                                (10) For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
                                Obviously, Christ did not come to seek and to save that which no longer existed.


                                John 18 KJV
                                (14) Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.
                                Obviously, He did not cease to exist.


                                Your exegesis of the word ἀπόληται fails.
                                My exegesis of the word ἀπόληται does not fail, for this reason.
                                You can't take the meaning of a word from one context, and apply that willy-nilly to the word in a different context. D.A. Carson calls this the fallacy of "Illlegitament Totality Transfer". Look at the context ofἀπόληται in John 3:16. οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

                                ἀπόληται (which means "perish" whether or not that produces problems for your pet doctrine) is contrasted with the phrase ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον (have eternal life). So clearly Jesus Christ is saying there are two choices. Perish (ἀπόληται) or have eternal life (ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον). Anyone that has eternal life will not perish, and anyone that perishes does not have eternal life.

                                Now look at Caiphais words. Did he intend to say that Jesus would die or not? He meant what he said. He knew that perish means to kill. It was not his intention to not cause Jesus to perish. It wasn't his intention to "lose" Jesus Christ. As a matter of fact, whenever the word is used of a person in the gospels, it means the person will die.

                                Peter meant what he said too. Everyone in the world, except for Noah and his family perished, they died. This doesn't support your use of apoletai to mean "not quite perished at all".

                                And Jesus Christ, knowing the fate of the lost is to perish, came to seek and to save those who are perishing. Paul even says "The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is the power of God to those of us who are being saved."

                                Your exegesis fails, and you claimed victory a little too soon. But I am impressed that you also can read greek, although your attraction to the doctine of ECT colors your interpretation a little.

                                If you go to a website called Rethinking hell, (all one word) you can read Dr. Glenn Peoples' analysis of the words apollumi and apoletai.

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