It is clear, but the exact nature of heaven and hell is speculative. The reality of each is not.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
It is clear, but the exact nature of heaven and hell is speculative. The reality of each is not.
The words support the traditional view in Hebrew, Greek, English. Words also have a semantical range of meaning depending on context. If a word means a limited age in one context, it does not mean it cannot mean an unlimited age in a context relating to heaven and hell.
The same argument is used about 'day' in relation to creationism vs theistic evolution, etc.
It does not, and you have only a few hints from me for you to guess from.
You want that because you want people to be alive when they are dead and to make the spirit which God breathed into Adam to include the soul and even the body.
You are just plain wrong because you believe the soul is eternal when God says men are dead, and after raising from the dead are judged if not in the book of life to be thrown into a lake of fire where nothing mortal can survive. They perish.
Your problem is that you have never worked it out and why should you know the truth when you lean on the interpretations of blind men like yourself.
LA
You use the idea of words having a semantical rage of meaning so you can replace the word dead with alive and the word perish with survive.
LA
Yes, you are just wasting your breath again--
Something you resort to when you can not justify changing the meanings of the clear words of the Bible to suit your spiritualist views of people being alive and conscious when they are dead.
Are you conscious when you are asleep?
Death of the grave is much more unconscious than that, and the second death even more so.
LA
I am alive while I sleep. Sleep is used as a metaphor for death in Scripture since the body looks like it is sleeping when it is dead. Just as one is alive while they sleep, so one is alive while they are dead.
I Tim. 5:6
Eph. 2:1-10
Adam died the day he ate in one sense, yet he remained conscious/alive.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
law of compensation........
law of compensation........
I suggest first understanding what the principle of 'karma' is, from the ancient hindu perspective, as western minds have distorted conceptions of it. I use the term 'karma' to include the universal law of cause/effect, being the 'law of compensation'...the natural flow of consequence. 'Karma' means 'action',....with understanding that all 'actions' produce corresponding re-actions, and so on. The principle of karma ("what a man sows, that also shall he reap") is a universal law.
In any case,....the law of karma or 'action' is inherent in the realm of conditional existence, as long as any mental or physical action can be engaged, for such 'actions' naturally produce corresponding effects. This is a universal principle recognized by all sentient beings, and is wholly fair and just, ultimately tending towards the good, betterment and reformation of the 'actor', since one becomes responsible for his own 'sins' or 'mistakes' and likewise responsible for his own reformation, repentance and ultimate liberation or salvation....within the providence of love of course,...since God's grace undergirds all conditions and destinies.
These articles will help with understanding karma -
A right understanding of karma
The law of karma in Hinduism
Karma, what is it?
'Karma in Buddhism' (complex)
Different expansions and perspectives on karma can be considered, but it remains that the law of karma is actually very just in that it acts according to perfect justice and also facilitates a corrective measure as the fulfillment of law. Each soul is responsible for those actions that are truly his own choices, even though there may be other affecting factors in certain situations or contexts within any given event. - but such are for another thread (this also ties in with the principle of reincarnation).
Your comment above is untenable, since you cannot disprove that some past actions (the persons or his parents) caused an unfortunate situation currently being suffered in the case of an infant born with defects. Neither is it sensible to suppose that all misfortunes in life are indicative that the sufferer DESERVES IT somehow (this is a childish understanding of the principle). Some 'causes' of misfortune may not been identifiable or seem as 'accidental'.....but beyond seeming 'accidents' all things unfold their potentials as conditions allow for such to express. All movements are connected, all creation, cause and effect flow relative to all other movements. Remember,...'karma' is the law of 'actions and their effects'.
From another angle:
Law of compensation (from the James E Padgett messages) - important considerations.
I recognize the principle of 'karma',...its not a 'belief' that is followed. What is horrible is a 'god' who condemns souls to an eternity of endless torture TO NO END.
pj
law of compensation........
I suggest first understanding what the principle of 'karma' is, from the ancient hindu perspective, as western minds have distorted conceptions of it. I use the term 'karma' to include the universal law of cause/effect, being the 'law of compensation'...the natural flow of consequence. 'Karma' means 'action',....with understanding that all 'actions' produce corresponding re-actions, and so on. The principle of karma ("what a man sows, that also shall he reap") is a universal law.
In any case,....the law of karma or 'action' is inherent in the realm of conditional existence, as long as any mental or physical action can be engaged, for such 'actions' naturally produce corresponding effects. This is a universal principle recognized by all sentient beings, and is wholly fair and just, ultimately tending towards the good, betterment and reformation of the 'actor', since one becomes responsible for his own 'sins' or 'mistakes' and likewise responsible for his own reformation, repentance and ultimate liberation or salvation....within the providence of love of course,...since God's grace undergirds all conditions and destinies.
These articles will help with understanding karma -
A right understanding of karma
The law of karma in Hinduism
Karma, what is it?
'Karma in Buddhism' (complex)
Different expansions and perspectives on karma can be considered, but it remains that the law of karma is actually very just in that it acts according to perfect justice and also facilitates a corrective measure as the fulfillment of law. Each soul is responsible for those actions that are truly his own choices, even though there may be other affecting factors in certain situations or contexts within any given event. - but such are for another thread (this also ties in with the principle of reincarnation).
Your comment above is untenable, since you cannot disprove that some past actions (the persons or his parents) caused an unfortunate situation currently being suffered in the case of an infant born with defects. Neither is it sensible to suppose that all misfortunes in life are indicative that the sufferer DESERVES IT somehow (this is a childish understanding of the principle). Some 'causes' of misfortune may not been identifiable or seem as 'accidental'.....but beyond seeming 'accidents' all things unfold their potentials as conditions allow for such to express. All movements are connected, all creation, cause and effect flow relative to all other movements. Remember,...'karma' is the law of 'actions and their effects'.
From another angle:
Law of compensation (from the James E Padgett messages) - important considerations.
I recognize the principle of 'karma',...its not a 'belief' that is followed. What is horrible is a 'god' who condemns souls to an eternity of endless torture TO NO END.
pj
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just ask yourself
do you want eternal suffering for anyone?
the answer is quite telling
do you want eternal suffering for anyone?
the answer is quite telling
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
pickles......
pickles......
What is wrong?
Who denied such? - also depends on how one defines 'soul' and in what context.
Only if a soul can truly be disintegrated, rendered non-existent. Even with a soul snuffed out,....it would seem both 'God' and other personalities would remember that one. Its like assuming one has gone a long vacation...but they never come back. All that is left is a memory, or energy-impression.
Thats one view.
In the realm of cause/effect....compensation must be afforded, so yes....it may appear that some sins have no effects in a given lifetime, but what is sown must be reaped at some point in the space-time continuum (in the afterlife or another physical embodiment). See former article on 'karma'.
I'm a spiritualist for the most part philosophically, but also accept the possibility of 'soul-death' only in certain contexts,....otherwise...consciousness continues in many different forms or 'bodies' if you will. 'Bodies' are assumed, then discarded in the play of life as a natural course of nature (formation of elements).
As for your 'devil' character....prove he exists outside of your own mind
pj
pickles......
What is wrong?
Who denied such? - also depends on how one defines 'soul' and in what context.
Only if a soul can truly be disintegrated, rendered non-existent. Even with a soul snuffed out,....it would seem both 'God' and other personalities would remember that one. Its like assuming one has gone a long vacation...but they never come back. All that is left is a memory, or energy-impression.
Thats one view.
In the realm of cause/effect....compensation must be afforded, so yes....it may appear that some sins have no effects in a given lifetime, but what is sown must be reaped at some point in the space-time continuum (in the afterlife or another physical embodiment). See former article on 'karma'.
I'm a spiritualist for the most part philosophically, but also accept the possibility of 'soul-death' only in certain contexts,....otherwise...consciousness continues in many different forms or 'bodies' if you will. 'Bodies' are assumed, then discarded in the play of life as a natural course of nature (formation of elements).
As for your 'devil' character....prove he exists outside of your own mind
pj
Krsto
Well-known member
You don't get it. God is responsible for what happens after a man dies because he is the only one making that decision. How can you argue otherwise?
God's Truth
New member
No, I know exactly what those from other countries believe about karma and reincarnation. You cannot defend your evil beliefs by just saying an untruth about others and me. I understand your evil teachings and western minds have not distorted concepts of it. I have even spoken to someone from another country about your evil beliefs.
I know what karma means, so move on.
You have a manufactured belief, made up from your own mind and the minds of other men, put there from the devil, the devil who is the prince of the air. You cannot pick and chose what you want to believe about God and add things from your demonic religion.
God’s Word says not all get what they deserve. God’s Word says what the wicked deserve the righteous get and what the righteous deserve the wicked get.
You prove how twisted you are with your evil beliefs. You went on and on stating that I do not understand, but then you stated exactly what I said your beliefs entail!
Karma is a belief that is followed.
If you think, it is so horrible to have an eternity of endless torture without relief---then why have you not repented of rejecting Jesus and following the teachings of demons?
Aimiel
Well-known member
How could you think that God is responsible for the sins which a man commits? He had the choice: to sin or not, and chose sin. God does not do injustice. Those in hell deserve their punishment, because of what they have done, not because God put them there. God does what is right, since He is Holy. He does no wrong.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
law of compensation continued......
law of compensation continued......
Your whole attitude continues to reflect an ignorance (among other presumptions) of the subject typical among those of your 'opinion', plus I provided articles that articulate it, as well as sharing that there are various descriptions, aspects and explanations of 'karma' within the total spectrum of the principle as understood among both eastern and western schools of thought. Your spouting off that the principle if evil is ridiculous...since ample passages from the bible can be shared in support of it as well. "God(the source of law and origin of all principles) is not mocked,....what a man sows that also shall he reap".
I'd suggest more education and dropping certain pressumptions or limiting such to certain conclusions as you've done. I also highly recommend what Jesus and other apostles have shared on the 'law of compensation' here in the Padgett messages. We're discussing the 'principle', not just a 'belief'.
Your puffed up religious egoity appears to have a fascination with 'demons' and the 'devil'. These have nothing to do with the law of compensation but are your religious opinions.
There is perfect justice in the Universe and all actions are 'compensated' so to speak, for such is the law of compensation. All actions have following re-actions, effects, consequences....even though they may not appear immediately. It appears you're speaking of Solomon who mulled over the mystery of the wicked prospering and the righteous suffering but you give no reference. His conclusion was that "All is vanity",...a rather bleak view. However, if the law of compensation is understood....all is not in vain....and it is this very principle that is truly just.
You're still not understand and misinterpreting. Re-read carefully and in context. You cannot disprove that in some cases a baby being born with defects may be the effect of some past actions....either from the parents or the baby itself. All suffering is not always self-inflicted since other factors and other people's sin may contribute to the suffering of others. I already pointed this out. However, that some suffering is self-imposed is obvious according to the law.
Karma is a conceptual law or principle that is assumed or recognized. Such is the law of compensation. Remember 'karma' means 'action'. Every soul is responsible for its own choices and actions unless other factors negate such responsibility.
It is horrible, and even more horrible if a 'god' is the kingpin behind it. Such a 'god' is hardly worthy of worship. If there is a just law behind actions and their consequences....that is another matter, as it will operate within the greater providence or higher law of Love always, since nothing acts outside that providence.
~*~*~
ECT exposed.
~*~*~
Respecting the thread-subject, the law of compensation or any karmic principle is explored as it relates to 'duration of suffering or punishment'. Further dialogue on this specifically may be continued in another thread.
pj
law of compensation continued......
Your whole attitude continues to reflect an ignorance (among other presumptions) of the subject typical among those of your 'opinion', plus I provided articles that articulate it, as well as sharing that there are various descriptions, aspects and explanations of 'karma' within the total spectrum of the principle as understood among both eastern and western schools of thought. Your spouting off that the principle if evil is ridiculous...since ample passages from the bible can be shared in support of it as well. "God(the source of law and origin of all principles) is not mocked,....what a man sows that also shall he reap".
I'd suggest more education and dropping certain pressumptions or limiting such to certain conclusions as you've done. I also highly recommend what Jesus and other apostles have shared on the 'law of compensation' here in the Padgett messages. We're discussing the 'principle', not just a 'belief'.
Your puffed up religious egoity appears to have a fascination with 'demons' and the 'devil'. These have nothing to do with the law of compensation but are your religious opinions.
There is perfect justice in the Universe and all actions are 'compensated' so to speak, for such is the law of compensation. All actions have following re-actions, effects, consequences....even though they may not appear immediately. It appears you're speaking of Solomon who mulled over the mystery of the wicked prospering and the righteous suffering but you give no reference. His conclusion was that "All is vanity",...a rather bleak view. However, if the law of compensation is understood....all is not in vain....and it is this very principle that is truly just.
You're still not understand and misinterpreting. Re-read carefully and in context. You cannot disprove that in some cases a baby being born with defects may be the effect of some past actions....either from the parents or the baby itself. All suffering is not always self-inflicted since other factors and other people's sin may contribute to the suffering of others. I already pointed this out. However, that some suffering is self-imposed is obvious according to the law.
Karma is a conceptual law or principle that is assumed or recognized. Such is the law of compensation. Remember 'karma' means 'action'. Every soul is responsible for its own choices and actions unless other factors negate such responsibility.
It is horrible, and even more horrible if a 'god' is the kingpin behind it. Such a 'god' is hardly worthy of worship. If there is a just law behind actions and their consequences....that is another matter, as it will operate within the greater providence or higher law of Love always, since nothing acts outside that providence.
~*~*~
ECT exposed.
~*~*~
Respecting the thread-subject, the law of compensation or any karmic principle is explored as it relates to 'duration of suffering or punishment'. Further dialogue on this specifically may be continued in another thread.
pj
Since the wisdom of God allows it, I will side with Him/Jesus, not Charles Taze Russell and Rob Bell.
Is God responsible for someone murdering/raping someone? If a just Judge punishes someone, does that make them responsible for the consequences/crime?
If a teen drives drunk are the parent's responsible if they were not aware of it and could not stop it at the time?
Hell was originally created for Satan/demons who had no provision of redemption because of the great light they sinned against. There is no need for people to go to hell, not be saved, etc. God has done everything He can.
If you want to negate love, relationship, free will, risk, etc., then we can get rid of hell, but at great cost (determinism, no creation, etc.).
They want their cake and eat it to. Most understand the heinous nature of sin and evil and need for justice in a responsible, reasonable moral government from a holy, loving Moral Governor.
The cross/gospel is the remedy, but God is not to blame when people reject it. Those who deny hell fail to understand the holiness and love of God and the sinfulness/condemnation of man. Cults, not Christianity, elevates man and denigrates God (minimize gap and solves by useless works vs foolishness of cross).
Side with Jesus/Bible, not Rob Bell.
freelight's Eastern nonsense is not worth wasting time on in light of biblical truth. His theology and god is wrong.
God's Truth
New member
You have a false opinion of me and I only care what God thinks of me.
You have no understanding of God. God is speaking of reaping eternal life or hell, God is not speaking of your evil karma beliefs.
I am not going to go to other links to read your garbage.
I speak what the Bible says.
You need to repent for following other gods, who are really demons.
Don’t you listen? You have just disproven your own beliefs with that statement you thought you could use against me. With your twisted evil beliefs, you are the one who cannot prove a child born with a defect is being punished for a past life---yet that is what your belief says, for I have spoken to people with your beliefs. You have a hard time speaking the truth.
You should not even be commenting on this thread, for you are not a Christian.
Rubbish.
Adam did not die until the thousand years were nearly up. (in that Day)
He also had fellowship with God after his reconciliation to God by God.
So what happened to Adam in his sinning is nowhere near the topic of ECT.
Stupid.
You are not conscious when you are asleep nor when you are dead.
LA
Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels.
The devil is not and was not ever an angel. He only disguises himself so and his messengers like servants of righteousness. 2 Cor.ch 11.
You need to think about that.
The angels are men/ messengers of Mat. ch 25. and of 2 Peter ch 2.
the sons of God of Gen.6
God did not make a mistake and then decide to throw man in there afterward.
Hell was always for wicked men.
You have not figured it out, but you like to think you have.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
LA