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Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

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  • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
    No, I know them. I just don't determine what the truth is by counting noses. What does the Bible say? Is the wages of sin eternal conscious torment or is the wages of sin death? Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says.
    Read John 5:24 and tell me what it says, then read 2 Corinthians 5:8 and tell me what it says also.
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    • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
      You keep equating your views with the plain Bible and plain Jesus. Your views are interpretative and wrong. Lk. 16 shows that Jesus had a different view than you, parable or not (and I think not, but even if it is, it would not falsely portrary doctrine; if your view is right, Jesus would not have used falsehood, metaphor or not, to convey intended spiritual truth/reality).
      And you call me a heretic for not believing you when you tell me the bible says something that the bible does not say. Maybe you interpret the bible differently than I do, but at least when I say the bible says something, that's what the bible says.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
        No, I know them. I just don't determine what the truth is by counting noses. What does the Bible say? Is the wages of sin eternal conscious torment or is the wages of sin death? Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says.
        In principle, death is separation. Adam died, yet was alive, when he sinned, for e.g. You beg the question by assuming your definition of death as cessation is right. Different contexts also talk about physical, spiritual, eternal death (some of your verses just show that those who die physically do not know the news stories on earth in the after life).

        Using your logic, the triune God is not trinity because some verses only mention Father or Son, but do not say 'God is trinity'.

        You argue like a JW on the issue of hell. Shame.
        Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

        They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
        I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

        Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

        "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

        The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
          In principle, death is separation. Adam died, yet was alive, when he sinned, for e.g. You beg the question by assuming your definition of death as cessation is right. Different contexts also talk about physical, spiritual, eternal death (some of your verses just show that those who die physically do not know the news stories on earth in the after life).

          Using your logic, the triune God is not trinity because some verses only mention Father or Son, but do not say 'God is trinity'.

          You argue like a JW on the issue of hell. Shame.
          I'm beginning to see similarities in Timotheo to another former JW poster. You may be on to something !

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Angel4Truth View Post
            Read John 5:24 and tell me what it says, then read 2 Corinthians 5:8 and tell me what it says also.
            I asked you first! What does Romans 6:23 say is the wages of sin?

            John 5:24 says "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

            Yes, this is what I believe. At the judgment, they pass from death to life and have eternal life. Those who reject him come into judgment and go to the second death. Obviously unbelievers do not pass from death to life, only believers.

            2 Corinthians 5:8 says "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,"

            In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul is talking about the resurrection. This doesn't say that we are instantly with the Lord when we die. If we were, why would he return to resurrect us?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bybee View Post
              I'm beginning to see similarities in Timotheo to another former JW poster. You may be on to something !
              Adhominum attacks do not prove your point. The fact that you make them proves that you don't have any scriptural support for your position. If you had any scriptures to support your false position, you would use them instead of merely calling me names. The fallacy you are committing is called "poisoning the well", and I have warned other posters who have committed this fallacy.

              So while we are poisoning the well, Mormons, Muslims, the Spanish Inquistion, and Adolph Hitler all believed in ECT. More Cults teach ECT than teach any other doctrine. So there.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by bybee View Post
                I'm beginning to see similarities in Timotheo to another former JW poster. You may be on to something !
                No. He is not like JW Chandler. I am just saying his arguments and logic are JW-like (pseudo-scholarship).

                He has not denied being trinitarian (but he is evasive at times), so I assume we are dealing with a brother in Christ. There is room under our tent for his view, as wrong as it is.
                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                  I asked you first! What does Romans 6:23 say is the wages of sin?

                  John 5:24 says "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

                  Yes, this is what I believe. At the judgment, they pass from death to life and have eternal life. Those who reject him come into judgment and go to the second death. Obviously unbelievers do not pass from death to life, only believers.

                  2 Corinthians 5:8 says "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,"

                  In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul is talking about the resurrection. This doesn't say that we are instantly with the Lord when we die. If we were, why would he return to resurrect us?
                  The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is life eternal for those who believe and Christ already said that those who believe have passed (have passed is past tense) from death into life, so the wages of sin for them for them is no longer death because they have ALREADY been risen to life in Christ, so when they physically die, they are already present with the Lord in Spirit.

                  Why would the wages of death apply to one alive in Christ?

                  See your own contradiction in your own words in red, you directly contradict scripture by claiming there is a judgment for the believer when Christ already said there would not be because they have already passed from death (wages of sin) to life.
                  sigpic

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                  • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                    I asked you first! What does Romans 6:23 say is the wages of sin?

                    John 5:24 says "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

                    Yes, this is what I believe. At the judgment, they pass from death to life and have eternal life. Those who reject him come into judgment and go to the second death. Obviously unbelievers do not pass from death to life, only believers.

                    2 Corinthians 5:8 says "So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,"

                    In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul is talking about the resurrection. This doesn't say that we are instantly with the Lord when we die. If we were, why would he return to resurrect us?
                    Is he talking about the resurrection or our experience at death?

                    I Cor. 15 IS talking explicitly about the resurrection, another matter.
                    Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                    They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                    I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                    Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                    "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                    The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                      Adhominum attacks do not prove your point. The fact that you make them proves that you don't have any scriptural support for your position. If you had any scriptures to support your false position, you would use them instead of merely calling me names. The fallacy you are committing is called "poisoning the well", and I have warned other posters who have committed this fallacy.

                      So while we are poisoning the well, Mormons, Muslims, the Spanish Inquistion, and Adolph Hitler all believed in ECT. More Cults teach ECT than teach any other doctrine. So there.
                      I like how people throw logical fallacy accusations around (my observation was valid, not a fallacy) while they commit them themselves.
                      Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                      They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                      I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                      Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                      "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                      The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                        No. He is not like JW Chandler. I am just saying his arguments and logic is JW-like (pseudo-scholarship).

                        He has not denied being trinitarian (but he is evasive at times), so I assume we are dealing with a brother in Christ. There is room under our tent for his view, as wrong as it is.
                        Then you MUST be a MORMON or a MUSLIM.

                        I never denied the trinity. You will try any scheme to try to discredit me, won't you? Your actions are shameful.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                          Then you MUST be a MORMON or a MUSLIM.

                          I never denied the trinity. You will try any scheme to try to discredit me, won't you? Your actions are shameful.
                          That is what I said...you did not deny the trinity, so you are not JW. This does not mean that you do not use the same or similar arguments against hell that they do (and can be refuted).

                          If I argue for pre-existence of the soul, then you can rightly say that my arguments are Mormon-like without meaning that I am Mormon or that I am trying to discredit you.

                          My point is that you share the same mindset and errors on this one topic, not that you are wrong about everything else or are a closet cultist. You are failing to quote me where I call you a brother and recognize that other capable, godly believers have come to your position (you are the one that keeps trying to say the rest of us are illogical and unbiblical...kettle/pot).

                          Have you seen the newer movie 'Hellbound' http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/

                          It was done by a fellow Canadian. I am in a city of a million. They showed the moved 2x. There were about 8 of us for the second showing. I appreciate people of faith who love God's Word. Most just want sex, action, etc., not deeper thinking on the most important issue ever (gospel/eternity/God).

                          You should watch the movie. The bias favors your side, but I enjoyed it (and was not persuaded, but cringed).

                          As an Open Theist, some of my favorite guys (Gregory Boyd, Sanders, Pinnock, etc.), agree more with you than me, so chill. There is no conspiracy to tar and feather you, as smug as you can be.

                          I have other non-traditional beliefs, so I am not stuck in traditional ruts, but desire truth, as do you. Do you have any other non-traditional views? I am Pentecostal, deny original sin, favor Moral Government Theology, am Open Theist, etc.
                          Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                          They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                          I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                          Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                          "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                          The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                          Comment


                          • Timo reported my post that says his argument was JW-like, but he is NOT a JW?! Big baby....you should also report my clarifications (you jumped to the wrong conclusions). It is also manly to work things out to clarify before you run to mommie.
                            Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                            They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                            I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                            Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                            "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                            The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by godrulz View Post
                              Timo reported my post that says his argument was JW-like, but he is NOT a JW?! Big baby....you should also report my clarifications (you jumped to the wrong conclusions). It is also manly to work things out to clarify before you run to mommie.
                              That is correct, I reported your post. That is not "running to mommie" or being a "big baby".

                              If you don't want to discuss this, you don't have to continue the discussion. If you want to continue the discussion, we can. Although I don't have time right now.

                              Talk to you later, have a nice evening.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Timotheos View Post
                                That is correct, I reported your post. That is not "running to mommie" or being a "big baby".

                                If you don't want to discuss this, you don't have to continue the discussion. If you want to continue the discussion, we can. Although I don't have time right now.

                                Talk to you later, have a nice evening.
                                I predict you will not last long here. I also predict that you are probably in your 20s and don't realize that you don't know it all.
                                Know God and make Him known! (YWAM)

                                They said: "Where is the God of Elijah?"
                                I say: "Where are the Elijahs of God?" (Ravenhill "Why Revival Tarries")

                                Rev. 1:17, 18; Jer. 9:23, 24

                                "No Compromise!" (Keith Green)

                                The Pledge: He died for me; I'll live for Him.

                                Comment

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