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  • God, Free Will, And A Strawberry Ice Cream Cone

    JAGG Writes:
    How does God simultaneously , , ,
    {A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
    while at the same time , , ,
    {B} often working in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

    One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
    and controls the external circumstances in such a way
    where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

    Let me give you one example where you could do that
    same thing with your son {assume you have an 8 year
    old son}

    A Father & Son & A Strawberry
    Ice Cream Cone . . .
    Let us say that you decide that your 8 year old son will
    eat a strawberry ice cream cone this coming Wednesday
    around 12 noon.

    His favorite flavor is chocolate and strawberry is only his
    2nd favorite flavor.

    Remember that you are ONLY going to control the external
    circumstances and the "outside inducements" -- you are NOT
    going to Force your son to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.

    ~ the external circumstances , , ,
    ~ the "outside inducements" , , ,



    You CAN Control . . .
    The "External Circumstances"
    And
    The "Outside Inducements" . . .
    {1} On Wednesday morning you make certain that there is no
    breakfast available so that your son will be hungry come
    lunch time.

    {2| You can control the place where you and your son go that
    day.

    {3} You select a Park Area that has an ice cream stand.

    {4} On Tuesday you arrange with the Ice Cream Stand's
    owner for him NOT to have any chocolate ice cream available,
    and for him to certainly have Strawberry Ice Cream available
    when you and your son arrive at the park area at around 12 noon.

    {5} When you and your son arrive at the park, your son tells
    you he is hungry and wants an ice cream cone.

    {6} You take your son to the ice cream stand.

    {7} Your son is told there is no chocolate ice cream available.

    {8} Your son asks if there is strawberry ice cream available.

    {9} Your son is told yes there is strawberry ice cream available.

    {10} Your son, now really hungry, and preferring chocolate ice cream,
    nonetheless, gladly "settles for" his 2nd favorite strawberry flavor,
    and asks for and eats the strawberry ice cream cone.

    So?

    So your son did EXACTLY what you had planned for him to do
    and at the same time you DID NOT violate your son's Free Will.

    Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
    want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."

    You did not urge him to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.
    You did not say a single word to him about it.
    You merely controlled the external circumstances and you
    put the "outside inducement" of the strawberry ice cream
    cone in front of him -- by making sure that he would be told
    that the strawberry ice cram was available for him if he wanted
    it.

    Your son made a 100% Free Will decision to eat the strawberry
    ice cream cone.

    _________

    That up there is one example of how the Sovereign God can control
    the external circumstances and the "outside inducements" in such a
    way where men end up doing what he has predetermined them to
    do --- while at the same time -- their Free Will is not violated.

    _________

    I realize that my example and illustration of the "Father & Son & Strawberry
    Ice Cream Cone" is not a perfect example or illustration --- but it does succeed
    in demonstrating how a Father can control the external circumstances and the
    "outside inducements" to bring about a good predetermined plan and at the same
    time, NOT violate his son's Free Will.

    ___________

    What is the takeaway point of the OP?
    Answer: It demonstrates one way in which God can simultaneously , , ,
    {A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
    while at the same time , , ,
    {B} often working good things in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

    One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
    and controls the external circumstances in such a way
    where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

    Let us all strive to make good Free Will choices and trust in
    God to help us as we do that and to bring good things into
    our lives.

    JAGG


  • #2
    jagg

    Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
    want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."
    No wrong, not if His Father is God and had already predetermined he will eat the strawberry icecream !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JAGG View Post
      Spoiler
      JAGG Writes:
      How does God simultaneously , , ,
      {A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
      while at the same time , , ,
      {B} often working in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

      One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
      and controls the external circumstances in such a way
      where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

      Let me give you one example where you could do that
      same thing with your son {assume you have an 8 year
      old son}
      A Father & Son & A Strawberry
      Ice Cream Cone . . .
      Let us say that you decide that your 8 year old son will
      eat a strawberry ice cream cone this coming Wednesday
      around 12 noon.

      His favorite flavor is chocolate and strawberry is only his
      2nd favorite flavor.

      Remember that you are ONLY going to control the external
      circumstances and the "outside inducements" -- you are NOT
      going to Force your son to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.

      ~ the external circumstances , , ,
      ~ the "outside inducements" , , ,




      You CAN Control . . .
      The "External Circumstances"
      And
      The "Outside Inducements" . . .
      {1} On Wednesday morning you make certain that there is no
      breakfast available so that your son will be hungry come
      lunch time.

      {2| You can control the place where you and your son go that
      day.

      {3} You select a Park Area that has an ice cream stand.

      {4} On Tuesday you arrange with the Ice Cream Stand's
      owner for him NOT to have any chocolate ice cream available,
      and for him to certainly have Strawberry Ice Cream available
      when you and your son arrive at the park area at around 12 noon.

      {5} When you and your son arrive at the park, your son tells
      you he is hungry and wants an ice cream cone.

      {6} You take your son to the ice cream stand.

      {7} Your son is told there is no chocolate ice cream available.

      {8} Your son asks if there is strawberry ice cream available.

      {9} Your son is told yes there is strawberry ice cream available.

      {10} Your son, now really hungry, and preferring chocolate ice cream,
      nonetheless, gladly "settles for" his 2nd favorite strawberry flavor,
      and asks for and eats the strawberry ice cream cone.

      So?

      So your son did EXACTLY what you had planned for him to do
      and at the same time you DID NOT violate your son's Free Will.

      Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
      want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."

      You did not urge him to eat the strawberry ice cream cone.
      You did not say a single word to him about it.
      You merely controlled the external circumstances and you
      put the "outside inducement" of the strawberry ice cream
      cone in front of him -- by making sure that he would be told
      that the strawberry ice cram was available for him if he wanted
      it.

      Your son made a 100% Free Will decision to eat the strawberry
      ice cream cone.

      _________

      That up there is one example of how the Sovereign God can control
      the external circumstances and the "outside inducements" in such a
      way where men end up doing what he has predetermined them to
      do --- while at the same time -- their Free Will is not violated.

      _________

      I realize that my example and illustration of the "Father & Son & Strawberry
      Ice Cream Cone" is not a perfect example or illustration --- but it does succeed
      in demonstrating how a Father can control the external circumstances and the
      "outside inducements" to bring about a good predetermined plan and at the same
      time, NOT violate his son's Free Will.

      ___________


      What is the takeaway point of the OP?
      Answer: It demonstrates one way in which God can simultaneously , , ,
      {A} maintain and respect our Human Free Will , , ,
      while at the same time , , ,
      {B} often working good things in our lives where we do His Sovereign Will?

      One way is that He presents the "outside inducements"
      and controls the external circumstances in such a way
      where both {A} and {B} occurs and is the sustained reality.

      Let us all strive to make good Free Will choices and trust in
      God to help us as we do that and to bring good things into
      our lives.

      JAGG

      Two cents:

      1 ¢ I don't like the term 'free' will but a 'culpable' will, which is, in some qualification 'free' but 'free' is a huge can of worms that is very difficult to define where no two persons alike mean the same thing. Perhaps in commanding "do not eat" and putting the two in the Garden, God made man in some sense 'free' but prohibitions aren't best understood in the sense of freedom, but also as the restriction which is needed and necessary if ever 'free' is to have good theological meaning and strong spiritual implication.

      ¢ # 2 I do believe your example demonstrates one way in which sovereignty and choice work. We are very much creatures of habit. You can bet your bottom dollar, every time, I'll choose Strawberry over chocolate and you'd be wise to offer me vanilla over strawberry as well. If you ONLY offered me vanilla, you've not, in fact, erased my freewill, but accentuated it. It is as clear as that. No one thinking this through, is going to think their will is violated when you give them what they want. Further, no Christian is going to cry foul if the God of the Universe gives them what He desires over their own will, as the Son offered: "Not my will, but Thine" and "Thy will be done."
      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

      ? Yep

      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
        jagg

        No wrong, not if His Father is God and had already predetermined
        he will eat the strawberry icecream !

        BOTH Free Will , , AND , , the Sovereignty Of God are clearly taught in the Holy Bible.
        There is no contradiction in the two.

        By the way, in my story the Father HAD in fact already determined that his son
        would eat the Strawberry Ice Cream Cone.

        Thanks for your comment, Beloved.

        Best.

        JAGG

        ``




        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lon View Post

          Two cents:

          1 ¢ I don't like the term 'free' will but a 'culpable' will, which is, in some qualification 'free' but 'free' is a huge can of worms that is very difficult to define where no two persons alike mean the same thing. Perhaps in commanding "do not eat" and putting the two in the Garden, God made man in some sense 'free' but prohibitions aren't best understood in the sense of freedom, but also as the restriction which is needed and necessary if ever 'free' is to have good theological meaning and strong spiritual implication.

          ¢ # 2 I do believe your example demonstrates one way in which sovereignty and choice work. We are very much creatures of habit. You can bet your bottom dollar, every time, I'll choose Strawberry over chocolate and you'd be wise to offer me vanilla over strawberry as well. If you ONLY offered me vanilla, you've not, in fact, erased my freewill, but accentuated it. It is as clear as that. No one thinking this through, is going to think their will is violated when you give them what they want. Further, no Christian is going to cry foul if the God of the Universe gives them what He desires over their own will, as the Son offered: "Not my will, but Thine" and "Thy will be done."
          Thanks for your comment Lon.
          Be back tomorrow to respond.

          Best.

          JAGG


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JAGG View Post

            BOTH Free Will , , AND , , the Sovereignty Of God are clearly taught in the Holy Bible.
            There is no contradiction in the two.

            By the way, in my story the Father HAD in fact already determined that his son
            would eat the Strawberry Ice Cream Cone.

            Thanks for your comment, Beloved.

            Best.

            JAGG

            ``



            The bible never teaches man has a freewill. Nobodys will is free from the Sovereign purpose of God ! Eph 1:11


            11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

            See all things, to include mans withh, works after the counsel of His Own will.
            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

            Charles Spurgeon !

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              jagg



              No wrong, not if His Father is God and had already predetermined he will eat the strawberry icecream !
              There's no contradiction between Jagg's idea and God's absolute and exhaustive sovereignty.
              "Those who believe in Christ" are all the Christians, Catholic or not.

              @Nee_Nihilo

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Idolater View Post
                There's no contradiction between Jagg's idea and God's absolute and exhaustive sovereignty.
                Yes it is. He wrote

                Your son at all times had the Free Will choice to say "No, I do not
                want to eat a strawberry ice cream cone."
                The sons choice could only choose what God had decided for him to chose !

                God turns men hearts to conform to His intentions and purposes Prov 21:1

                The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water:
                he turneth it whithersoever he will.

                This compliments what I just posted which obviously you ignored Eph 1:11

                11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
                "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                Charles Spurgeon !

                Comment


                • #9
                  Idolater

                  beloved57

                  Lon

                  "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
                  then choose for yourselves this day whom
                  you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors
                  served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the
                  Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for
                  me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
                  ___Joshua 24:15

                  Thank all of you for your comments and for reading
                  my OP. I appreciate that.

                  I'm not in the frame of mind right now to argue about
                  the definitions of words. If anyone does not like the
                  phrase "Free Will" they can pick another word or
                  phrase they like better.

                  How about the phrase "choose for yourselves" in
                  Joshua 24:15? That's a word for word Biblical phrase
                  and that seems crystal clear to me.
                  The people hearing Joshua had a simple choice:
                  {1} choose to serve the Lord
                  {2} choose NOT to serve the Lord
                  That is not complicated.

                  Neither is the way the entire Bible is written which
                  constantly , , ,constantly , , , calls on the readers to
                  use their will to choose. Again if you don't like the
                  word "free" then get rid of it and just use the word
                  "will." If you don't like the word "will" then get rid of
                  it and just use the Biblical word "choose" as presented
                  in Joshua 24:15.

                  When we read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 -- the great
                  New Testament Love chapter we are called upon to
                  "choose" to practice Love. Is that true of false?
                  That is obviously True and NOT False.

                  Did Paul write 1 Corinthians chapter 13 merely for us
                  to read without us making a decision to "choose" to
                  practice Love? No he did not. We all know he did not
                  do that. He wrote wanting his readers to "choose" to
                  put those principles of Love into daily action.

                  So if we do not have "Free Will" then we do have "choose."
                  "Choose for yourselves."

                  Then we have the hundreds , , maybe thousands , , of clear
                  bold instances in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation that
                  are written in such a way that it is clear and obvious that we
                  have to "choose."

                  One example among at least hundreds is Revelation 3:20

                  "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my
                  voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person,
                  and they with me."___The Lord Jesus
                  The reader is called upon to make a choice {to choose}
                  {1} open the door
                  or
                  {2} refuse to open the door

                  How about John 7:17 ?


                  "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will
                  find out whether my teaching comes from God
                  or whether I speak on my own."__The Lord Jesus
                  John 7:17
                  {1} choose to do God will
                  {2} choose not to do God's will



                  Best.

                  JAGG










                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Excuse me while I make me some ice cream with fresh strawberries. Hmmm. 😋
                    Last edited by Saved.One.by.Grace; September 20, 2020, 03:04 PM.
                    Eph 2:8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift --
                    Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.
                    Eph 2:10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. [HCSB]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JAGG View Post
                      Idolater

                      beloved57

                      Lon

                      "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
                      then choose for yourselves this day whom
                      you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors
                      served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the
                      Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for
                      me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
                      ___Joshua 24:15

                      Thank all of you for your comments and for reading
                      my OP. I appreciate that.

                      I'm not in the frame of mind right now to argue about
                      the definitions of words. If anyone does not like the
                      phrase "Free Will" they can pick another word or
                      phrase they like better.

                      How about the phrase "choose for yourselves" in
                      Joshua 24:15? That's a word for word Biblical phrase
                      and that seems crystal clear to me.
                      The people hearing Joshua had a simple choice:
                      {1} choose to serve the Lord
                      {2} choose NOT to serve the Lord
                      That is not complicated.

                      Neither is the way the entire Bible is written which
                      constantly , , ,constantly , , , calls on the readers to
                      use their will to choose. Again if you don't like the
                      word "free" then get rid of it and just use the word
                      "will." If you don't like the word "will" then get rid of
                      it and just use the Biblical word "choose" as presented
                      in Joshua 24:15.

                      When we read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 -- the great
                      New Testament Love chapter we are called upon to
                      "choose" to practice Love. Is that true of false?
                      That is obviously True and NOT False.

                      Did Paul write 1 Corinthians chapter 13 merely for us
                      to read without us making a decision to "choose" to
                      practice Love? No he did not. We all know he did not
                      do that. He wrote wanting his readers to "choose" to
                      put those principles of Love into daily action.

                      So if we do not have "Free Will" then we do have "choose."
                      "Choose for yourselves."

                      Then we have the hundreds , , maybe thousands , , of clear
                      bold instances in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation that
                      are written in such a way that it is clear and obvious that we
                      have to "choose."

                      One example among at least hundreds is Revelation 3:20

                      "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my
                      voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person,
                      and they with me."___The Lord Jesus
                      The reader is called upon to make a choice {to choose}
                      {1} open the door
                      or
                      {2} refuse to open the door

                      How about John 7:17 ?


                      "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will
                      find out whether my teaching comes from God
                      or whether I speak on my own."__The Lord Jesus
                      John 7:17
                      {1} choose to do God will
                      {2} choose not to do God's will



                      Best.

                      JAGG









                      Why you wasting spàce ? Man's will isn't free from God's absolute control. We can only make choices and decisions that He determined. Sorry!
                      "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                      preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                      called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                      a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                      Charles Spurgeon !

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                        Why you wasting spàce ? Man's will isn't free from God's absolute control. We can only make choices and decisions that He determined. Sorry!
                        Absolutely correct Brother, Dan. 4:35 !
                        My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever;
                        when shall I be brought in to see His Face? - Psalm 42:2

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lon View Post

                          Two cents:

                          1 ¢ I don't like the term 'free' will but a 'culpable' will, which is, in some qualification 'free' but 'free' is a huge can of worms that is very difficult to define where no two persons alike mean the same thing. Perhaps in commanding "do not eat" and putting the two in the Garden, God made man in some sense 'free' but prohibitions aren't best understood in the sense of freedom, but also as the restriction which is needed and necessary if ever 'free' is to have good theological meaning and strong spiritual implication.

                          ¢ # 2 I do believe your example demonstrates one way in which sovereignty and choice work. We are very much creatures of habit. You can bet your bottom dollar, every time, I'll choose Strawberry over chocolate and you'd be wise to offer me vanilla over strawberry as well. If you ONLY offered me vanilla, you've not, in fact, erased my freewill, but accentuated it. It is as clear as that. No one thinking this through, is going to think their will is violated when you give them what they want. Further, no Christian is going to cry foul if the God of the Universe gives them what He desires over their own will, as the Son offered: "Not my will, but Thine" and "Thy will be done."


                          Lon,

                          Thank you for taking the time to make those comments.

                          Can we agree on my post up-thread where I mentioned Joshua 24:15 and John 7:17 ?

                          My view is that the "Human Ability To Choose" and the Sovereign Will Of God are BOTH
                          assumed to be true throughout the Holy Bible and neither one contradicts the other.

                          I deliberately chose "Human Ability To Choose" and avoided the "problem" words "Free Will."

                          If we do not have the "Human Ability To Choose" then we have some major Big Time Serious
                          interpretative problems spread out from Genesis to Revelation.

                          Here is one right here , , ,

                          John 3:16 presents a choice.
                          {1} believe and get Eternal Life
                          {2} refuse to believe and perish

                          I mean if we have to have a major in-depth theological discussion before we can agree that
                          John 3:16 asks humans to choose -- then we have some very serious Evangelistic problems.

                          What about the Billy Graham Crusades? Did Billy "miss the boat" when he gave the "altar call"
                          and asked people to "make a decision" to accept Christ as their Savior? Or should Billy have
                          held in-depth theological classes instead of Evangelistic Crusades? In-depth theological
                          classes to discuss the Calvinistic vs. Armenian position on Human "Free Will" and the
                          Sovereignty Of God ?

                          Just imagine how that would have "gone down" among those who came to hear Billy preach
                          the gospel.

                          , , lol , , ,

                          God Bless Us All.

                          JAGG


                          ``



                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                            Why you wasting spàce ? Man's will isn't free from God's absolute control.
                            We can only make choices and decisions that He determined. Sorry!

                            , , LOL , ,

                            You need "thread fuel" for another Calvinist vs. Armenian Thread but you
                            will NOT get the "fuel" from me. And Nanja will not give you the "fuel" nor
                            will others who already agree with you. So? So that means this thread is
                            going to soon be as dead as a rock.

                            Here is just a little tiny bit of "fuel" that might get you one or two
                            additional posts before Thread Death occurs.

                            God Bless you.


                            "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
                            then choose for yourselves this day whom
                            you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors
                            served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the
                            Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for
                            me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
                            ___Joshua 24:15



                            "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will
                            find out whether my teaching comes from God
                            or whether I speak on my own."__The Lord Jesus
                            John 7:17

                            Best.

                            JAGG


                            ``


                            Last edited by JAGG; September 20, 2020, 04:17 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JAGG View Post

                              , , LOL , ,

                              You need "thread fuel" foe another Calvinist vs. Armenian Thread but you
                              will NOT get the "fuel" from me. And Nanja will not give you the "fuel" nor
                              will others who already agree with you. So? So that means this thread is
                              going to soon be as dead as a rock.

                              Here is just a little tiny bit of "fuel" that might get you one or two
                              additional posts before Thread Death occurs.

                              God Bless you.


                              "But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you,
                              then choose for yourselves this day whom
                              you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors
                              served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the
                              Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for
                              me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
                              ___Joshua 24:15



                              "Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will
                              find out whether my teaching comes from God
                              or whether I speak on my own."__The Lord Jesus
                              John 7:17

                              Best.

                              JAGG


                              ``

                              I never said man cannot make choices, he can, but they are predetermined by God. For instance, man is asked or told to serve God or not, well what ever choice he made was predetermined by God! If he chooses not to serve God then he chose according to the Will of God!
                              "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                              preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                              called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                              a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                              Charles Spurgeon !

                              Comment

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