What is Jesus saying in John 8:58 and what is he not saying?

[oatmeal]

You're continuing your temper tantrum because, in your attempts to bolster your anti-Christ heresy, you've been dismally foiled by the simple, straightforward clarity of what John records in John 5:18--namely, the truths that Jesus had broken the sabbath, that Jesus said God is His Father, and that Jesus was making Himself equal with God. You and I both know very well that you've got nothing, but it might be some time before you actually cool off and mellow out, and take leave of your grumbly pettiness. Back to the drawing board for you, joker.

Still waiting for you to show from scripture an incident where Jesus broke the Sabbath.

The law requires that there be wirnesses

 

[Tigger 2]

My opinion has nothing to do with this. Why won't you answer my questions?



No, I only upheld what scripture says.

Which is this:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV



So John was an enemy of Jesus?

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

You better be correct, Oatmeal, because the alternative is that you are bearing false witness against countless millions of Christians for believing that Jesus had, in fact, broken the sabbath, and that Jesus had, in fact, made Himself equal with God.



You apparently don't.



Rejecting what scripture says in favor of your own preconceived notions isn't good, Oatmeal.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . .Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

No one is accusing Jesus of anything in these two verses.

John is stating clearly that Jesus did these things.

Was John lying? An enemy of Jesus? or was he accurately describing what had happened?



And?



Bearing false witness is a sin, Oatmeal.

You should tell God you're sorry for bearing false witness.



So then why didn't John record, like every other instance you listed, the enemies of God speaking, rather than state, as a matter of fact, that Jesus had done those things?

In other words, why do we not see this:

"For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, and accused him of doing these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, saying, "You not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was Your Father, making Yourself equal with God." - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

Instead of this:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV



Again, John lied about Jesus breaking the Sabbath?



No one said otherwise.



Where did I accuse Him of such?

Please explain how you think if Jesus had broke the sabbath in this passage, he would have sinned. You can't, because your paradigm of beliefs prevents you from considering any alternatives.

Your problem, Oatmeal, is that your position doesn't allow you to consider the possibility that Jesus, in breaking the Sabbath, wasn't sinning at all, because your position doesn't allow for him to have broken the Sabbath, which is exactly what John recorded Him having done, not once, but twice, and not only breaking the Sabbath, but your position ALSO doesn't allow for John to be correct when John said that Jesus made Himself equal with God.

My position, however, allows the text to speak for itself, in the way it was written, without having to try to explain away what was being said.

John (not the Jews, the Pharisees, the enemies of Jesus) said:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

Was John lying?

Why would Jesus have been sinning if He had broken the Sabbath?

-------------------------------------------

John 5:18 (“Equal”: Ison)

Dr. Walter Martin writes in his Kingdom of the Cults:
“John 5:18 - He said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

“Concluding our chapter on ... this verse that is self-explanatory. .... it [is not] contextually or grammatically allowable that John is here recording what the Jews said about Jesus, as Jehovah’s Witnesses lamely argue. The sentence structure clearly shows that John said it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and not the Jews! .... No serious scholar or commentator has ever questioned it."

.... This text alone is of enormous value and argues powerfully for our Lord’s Deity.” - pp. 96-97.

But here is how John 5:18 appears in its entirety:
“For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal [ison] with God.” - NIV.

You see, Jesus had just healed a man on the Sabbath (John 5:8, 9). Now the Jews had, by the accumulation of their man-made traditions, added hundreds of restrictions to their God-given Sabbath Law.
[*] Jesus frequently pointed out how terrible many of their traditions were in God’s eyes and how they actually violated his word. At Matt. 15:6-9, for example, he said:
“you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’” - NIV.

The Law of Moses was still in effect for all Jews (including Jesus, of course) until it was done away by Christ’s death. Jesus, being the only perfect man, had to perfectly follow God’s Law, including the Sabbath law, all his earthly life as a man.

So, the only real question concerning the Sabbath laws would have to be: what was really in accord with God’s Sabbath requirements, and what were really the improper traditions of men concerning the Sabbath?

Jesus cleared up the problem of healing on the Sabbath: “it is lawful [in accord with God’s intended requirements for the Sabbath] to do good on the Sabbath.’” Then he healed a man on the Sabbath. - Matt. 12:10-13.

It is clear, then, that healing on the Sabbath was actually lawful in God’s eyes but unlawful in the eyes of the Jewish authorities only!

Obviously the Apostle John knew that Jesus had healed lawfully on the Sabbath. He knew that Jesus would never break the Sabbath as lawfully established by God. Only Jesus’ Jewish opponents believed Jesus was breaking the Sabbath!

Therefore, John could not possibly be saying that Jesus was “breaking the sabbath” (John 5:18). Obviously, instead, this is what Jesus’ Jewish opponents were saying (or thinking).

So, in answer to the above, it must be the Jews who are saying at John 5:18 “not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal [ison] with God.” - NIV.

Furthermore, it is obvious that John would never distort God’s word by saying that if anyone calls God his Father, he is necessarily claiming to be equal with God! - John 8:41; Matt. 23:9; John 20:17; Is. 64:8; Jer. 3:4, 19; Luke 3:38; Ro. 8:14, 15; Gen. 6:2; Job 38:7. - It must have been the words of those who by their traditions “nullify the word of God.”

If it truly were John who, when writing this account long after Jesus’ death, inserted such a false accusation of his own (as Martin is really saying), then the following respected trinitarian scholars and translators would not have Jesus answering that ‘future’ (John’s Gospel was written over 50 years after Jesus’ death) inserted comment of John’s by speaking immediately to those Jews:
“So Jesus answered them, ‘I tell you, the Son cannot do anything of his own

accord ...” - John 5:19, An American Translation, Goodspeed.

"So Jesus said to them, .... " - English Standard Version.

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them,..." - King James Version
“So Jesus made this answer to them: ....” - Moffatt.

“So Jesus answered them: ...” - C.B. Williams.

“‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered them, ...” - William F. Beck.

“So Jesus answered them, ...” - Good News Bible.

“So Jesus answered them by saying, ...” - The Amplified Bible.

“To this charge Jesus replied, ....” - The New English Bible (and the REB).

“To this accusation Jesus replied: ...” - The Jerusalem Bible.

And The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English which has an interlinear literal word-for-word translation of the NT text by Rev. Alfred Marshall:
"Answered therefore - Jesus and said to them: ...."

How well do the above respected trinitarian renderings support Martin’s statement: “... nor is it contextually or grammatically allowable that John is here recording what the Jews said about Jesus, as Jehovah’s Witnesses lamely argue.”? These respected trinitarian translators have said Jesus replied to this accusation. He must have responded to the comment made at the time by the Jews!

Remember, Martin declared “No serious scholar or commentator has ever questioned it” (that John, not the Jews, said the words in question). But the following major trinitarian references contradict Martin and confirm the clear and necessary understanding that this was actually the Jews’ statement or thought (not John’s).
“The Jews taxed [Jesus] with making himself equal with God [at John 5:18].” - p. 499, Vol. 2, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1976, 1986.

“Our Lord’s opponents say that He has ‘called God his own Father [John 5:18].’” - The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 968, Vol. 2, Eerdman’s Publishing, 1956, 1984.

“[John 5] verse 18. Making himself equal with God. This the Jews understood from the preceding verse.” - Adam Clarke’s Commentary, 1826.

After quoting Jesus’ words of John 5:19, 20, Noted trinitarian scholar and translator Dr. William Barclay writes in his popular and respected Daily Study Bible Series:
“This is the beginning of Jesus’s answer to the Jews’ charge that he was making himself equal to God.” - p. 188, Vol. 1, The Gospel of John, Rev. ed., The Daily Study Bible Series, The Westminster Press, 1975.

Not only is The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, quoted above, one of the most respected and best-known trinitarian Bible encyclopedias (as also is The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology), but it was so known at the time Martin wrote his diatribe above. (“No serious scholar or commentator has ever questioned it”)!

Note:


[*] .For example the footnote for John 5:10 in The NIV Study Bible (1985) tells us: “It was not the law of Moses but their traditional interpretation of it that prohibited carrying loads of any kind on the Sabbath. The Jews had very strict [man-made] regulations on keeping the Sabbath….” And the footnote for John 7:22 says: “…. Jesus was not saying that the Sabbath should not be observed or that the Jewish regulations were too harsh. He was saying that his opponents did not understand what the Sabbath meant. The command to circumcise showed that sometimes work not only might be done on the Sabbath but must be done then. Deeds of mercy were in this category.” [My emphasis].

 

[7djengo7]

Still waiting for you to show from scripture an incident where Jesus broke the Sabbath.

The law requires that there be wirnesses

I've presented John 5:18 for you, wherein John reports that Jesus "had broken the sabbath". Please present a Scripture wherein you imagine John, or some other person, reports that Jesus "had NOT broken the sabbath". Have fun with that.

Child of Satan, what more can I do for you than to simply quote John's own report, in John 5:18, that Jesus "had broken the sabbath"? Since you--being the lawless, anti-Christ, false witness that you are--despise and contradict John's plain Scripture truth, and refuse to take his word for it, then obviously you're never going to take my word for it.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because ​

he ​

not only​

had broken the sabbath​

, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.​

It's quite plain why John's record, here, that Jesus had broken the sabbath, is so frustrating to Satanic, anti-Christ heretics such as yourself, who say that, on the contrary, Jesus had not broken the sabbath. But, as you and I both know, you've got nothing--absolutely nothing--here, that helps you in your raving opposition to this Bible truth, and so, all you're doing is begging for more attention and attempting to waste my time. I forgive you for it, though, as I'm quite patient.

May God sooner or later remove the thick veil from your eyes, that you will no longer be stumbling about in your present dark, anti-Christ blindness!

 

[7djengo7]

Dr. Walter Martin writes in his Kingdom of the Cults:
“John 5:18 - He said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

“Concluding our chapter on ... this verse that is self-explanatory. .... it [is not] contextually or grammatically allowable that John is here recording what the Jews said about Jesus, as Jehovah’s Witnesses lamely argue. The sentence structure clearly shows that John said it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and not the Jews! .... No serious scholar or commentator has ever questioned it."

.... This text alone is of enormous value and argues powerfully for our Lord’s Deity.” - pp. 96-97.

Amen! No serious person who can read John 5:18 could ever honestly say that John, in the verse, is recording what the Jews thought or said about Jesus, though that is just what anti-Christ heretic cultists such as the Russellites, and others, say John is doing.

But here is how John 5:18 appears in its entirety:
“For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal [ison] with God.” - NIV.

Can you please tell me for what Greek noun, in John 5:18, the NIV producers have here put the English noun, "reason", into their text?

You like that English noun, "reason", being there in the NIV, don't you! Yeah...that's why you chose to quote from the NIV, rather than from the KJV, you sneaky snake, you: the KJV doesn't have that little phrase, "For this reason", and you wish, against truth and reality, to have it so that John were, here, writing a record of something the Jews thought or said--a record of something you'd like to call their "reason".

Take a look at the following sentence:

"For this reason the lightning came all the closer to killing Joe: not only was Joe running about in an open field during the storm, but he was even holding a metal rod up toward the sky, making himself prominent as a potential conduit for a violent surge of electricity."

Ah! According to your view of the phrase, "For this reason", it must be that, in this sentence, we have a record, not of what Joe was doing, but rather, of what the lightning storm thought or said about Joe, right? So,

• apparently, Joe wasn't really running about in an open field during the storm: that's just what the storm accused Joe of doing.
• apparently, Joe wasn't really holding a metal rod up toward the sky: that's just what the storm accused Joe of doing.
• apparently, Joe wasn't really making himself prominent as a potential conduit for a violent surge of electricity: that's just what the storm accused Joe of doing.

As you can see, and as any honest person will not hesitate to admit, even the NIV's phrase, "For this reason", doesn't give you a shred of help in your heretical assault on John 5:18.

In John 5:18, John records that Jesus:

• had broken the sabbath
• said that God was His Father
• was making Himself equal with God

In John 5:18, John reports that the Jews sought to kill Jesus, and he reports what, that Jesus did, caused the Jews to seek to kill Jesus. In John 5:18, John does not record anything that may have been thought or said by the Jews about Jesus, or about anyone or anything else.

 

[Tigger 2]

Amen! No serious person who can read John 5:18 could ever honestly say that John, in the verse, is recording what the Jews thought or said about Jesus, though that is just what anti-Christ heretic cultists such as the Russellites, and others, say John is doing.



Can you please tell me for what Greek noun, in John 5:18, the NIV producers have here put the English noun, "reason", into their text?

You like that English noun, "reason", being there in the NIV, don't you! Yeah...that's why you chose to quote from the NIV, rather than from the KJV, you sneaky snake, you: the KJV doesn't have that little phrase, "For this reason", and you wish, against truth and reality, to have it so that John were, here, writing a record of something the Jews thought or said--a record of something you'd like to call their "reason".

Take a look at the following sentence:

"For this reason the lightning came all the closer to killing Joe: not only was Joe running about in an open field during the storm, but he was even holding a metal rod up toward the sky, making himself prominent as a potential conduit for a violent surge of electricity."

Ah! According to your view of the phrase, "For this reason", it must be that, in this sentence, we have a record, not of what Joe was doing, but rather, of what the lightning storm thought or said about Joe, right? So,

• apparently, Joe wasn't really running about in an open field during the storm: that's just what the storm accused Joe of doing.
• apparently, Joe wasn't really holding a metal rod up toward the sky: that's just what the storm accused Joe of doing.
• apparently, Joe wasn't really making himself prominent as a potential conduit for a violent surge of electricity: that's just what the storm accused Joe of doing.

As you can see, and as any honest person will not hesitate to admit, even the NIV's phrase, "For this reason", doesn't give you a shred of help in your heretical assault on John 5:18.

In John 5:18, John records that Jesus:

• had broken the sabbath
• said that God was His Father
• was making Himself equal with God

In John 5:18, John reports that the Jews sought to kill Jesus, and he reports what, that Jesus did, caused the Jews to seek to kill Jesus. In John 5:18, John does not record anything that may have been thought or said by the Jews about Jesus, or about anyone or anything else.

I'm truly sorry you don't understand written English very well.

I'm also sorry you can only select one or two non-essential details (ignoring the vast number of the other essential details in my post) which you try to beat to death - straw man fallacy.

"For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him" - ASV.

"For this reason the Jewish leaders wanted even more to kill him" - CEV.

"For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him" - NAB.

"For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him" - NASB.

"For this reason the Jewish leaders were trying even harder to kill him" - NET.

"For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him" - NRSV.

"So for this reason the Judaeans were all the more eager to kill him" - NTE.

"So for this reason the Judean leaders kept trying even harder to kill Him" - TLV.

 

[7djengo7]

But here is how John 5:18 appears in its entirety:
“For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal [ison] with God.” - NIV.

Can you please tell me for what Greek noun, in John 5:18, the NIV producers have here put the English noun, "reason", into their text?

<NO ANSWER>

"For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him" - ASV.

"For this reason the Jewish leaders wanted even more to kill him" - CEV.

"For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him" - NAB.

"For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him" - NASB.

"For this reason the Jewish leaders were trying even harder to kill him" - NET.

"For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him" - NRSV.

"So for this reason the Judaeans were all the more eager to kill him" - NTE.

"So for this reason the Judean leaders kept trying even harder to kill Him" - TLV.

Can you please tell me for what Greek noun, in John 5:18, the ASV producers have (as you here document) put the English noun, "cause", into their text, and the CEV, NAB, NASB, NET, NRSV, NTE, and TLV producers have put the English noun, "reason", into their texts?

 

[7djengo7]

After quoting Jesus’ words of John 5:19, 20, Noted trinitarian scholar and translator Dr. William Barclay writes in his popular and respected Daily Study Bible Series:
“This is the beginning of Jesus’s answer to the Jews’ charge that he was making himself equal to God.” - p. 188, Vol. 1, The Gospel of John, Rev. ed., The Daily Study Bible Series, The Westminster Press, 1975.

I do not know that William Barclay is, or claims to be a Trinitarian, and, of course, I've no intention to take your lying, anti-Christ, Russellite word for it that he is. Why don't you tell us whence you imagine you have learned that he is a Trinitarian: please quote what he has said that makes you think (or pretend to think) he is a Trinitarian, citing your source.

Only somebody who (like you) denies that Jesus is equal with God would call a statement that Jesus was making Himself equal with God a CHARGE. That's what Barclay, in your quote, is doing: he is calling the statement that Jesus was making Himself equal with God a CHARGE. So much for your "Trinitarian" Barclay, your pretended "hostile witness", you slithering, Christ-despising serpent.

In any case, we have, in John 5:18, no record of the Jews saying, or thinking, that Jesus was making Himself equal to God.

There's no more reason to say that John 5:18 is a record of the Jews saying, or thinking, that Jesus was making Himself equal to God than there is to say that John 5:18 is a record of the Jews saying, or thinking, that Jesus said that God was His Father.

John 5:18 is a record that

• Jesus had broken the sabbath,
• said that God was His Father,
• was making Himself equal with God.

John 5:18 is NOT a record that

• the Jews said that Jesus had broken the sabbath,
• the Jews said that Jesus said that God was His Father,
• the Jews said that Jesus was making Himself equal with God.

I'm truly sorry you don't understand written English very well.

That's meaningless, generic grumbling from you--fit for any form letter you'd send to anybody who opposes your heresy, because you've no hope of even beginning to deal with the rational objections levelled against your heretical irrationality. It's hypocrisy on your part, too, seeing as you egregiously, deliberately fail to understand (among other things) the simple English of John 5:18, all because of your committed, Christ-despising devotion to your anti-Christ Russellite heresy.

Can you quote a verse in which Jesus, or anybody else, states that Jesus was NOT making Himself equal with God? Have fun with that, you lying Russellite.

 

[oatmeal]

I've presented John 5:18 for you, wherein John reports that Jesus "had broken the sabbath". Please present a Scripture wherein you imagine John, or some other person, reports that Jesus "had NOT broken the sabbath". Have fun with that.

Child of Satan, what more can I do for you than to simply quote John's own report, in John 5:18, that Jesus "had broken the sabbath"? Since you--being the lawless, anti-Christ, false witness that you are--despise and contradict John's plain Scripture truth, and refuse to take his word for it, then obviously you're never going to take my word for it.




It's quite plain why John's record, here, that Jesus had broken the sabbath, is so frustrating to Satanic, anti-Christ heretics such as yourself, who say that, on the contrary, Jesus had not broken the sabbath. But, as you and I both know, you've got nothing--absolutely nothing--here, that helps you in your raving opposition to this Bible truth, and so, all you're doing is begging for more attention and attempting to waste my time. I forgive you for it, though, as I'm quite patient.

May God sooner or later remove the thick veil from your eyes, that you will no longer be stumbling about in your present dark, anti-Christ blindness!

First of all, I have no interest in taking your word for it.

Are you God? Did you author the scripture?

You insults are false accusations, you have shown your true colors.

Nice try, that is what John reported about what Jesus' enemies were saying.

Show me one record of an incident where Jesus broke the Sabbath

Why are you against Jesus declaration that he always did the Father's will.

It is not the Father's will that anyone disobey him, not even His son.

I still await you to present an incident where Jesus broke the Sabbath.

in the meantime, Jesus showed his true colors

Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Luke 6:9
Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Luke 11:2
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.



John 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.



John 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.



John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.



John 5:45
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.



John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.


John 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


John 12:28
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.


Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Mark 1:11
And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Luke 3:22
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.


John 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.


Why do you accuse Jesus of sinning? You need to learn to rightly divide the word of truth if you desire to stand approved before God

 

[oatmeal]

-------------------------------------------

John 5:18 (“Equal”: Ison)

Dr. Walter Martin writes in his Kingdom of the Cults:
“John 5:18 - He said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

“Concluding our chapter on ... this verse that is self-explanatory. .... it [is not] contextually or grammatically allowable that John is here recording what the Jews said about Jesus, as Jehovah’s Witnesses lamely argue. The sentence structure clearly shows that John said it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and not the Jews! .... No serious scholar or commentator has ever questioned it."

.... This text alone is of enormous value and argues powerfully for our Lord’s Deity.” - pp. 96-97.

But here is how John 5:18 appears in its entirety:
“For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal [ison] with God.” - NIV.

You see, Jesus had just healed a man on the Sabbath (John 5:8, 9). Now the Jews had, by the accumulation of their man-made traditions, added hundreds of restrictions to their God-given Sabbath Law.
[*] Jesus frequently pointed out how terrible many of their traditions were in God’s eyes and how they actually violated his word. At Matt. 15:6-9, for example, he said:
“you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’” - NIV.

The Law of Moses was still in effect for all Jews (including Jesus, of course) until it was done away by Christ’s death. Jesus, being the only perfect man, had to perfectly follow God’s Law, including the Sabbath law, all his earthly life as a man.

So, the only real question concerning the Sabbath laws would have to be: what was really in accord with God’s Sabbath requirements, and what were really the improper traditions of men concerning the Sabbath?

Jesus cleared up the problem of healing on the Sabbath: “it is lawful [in accord with God’s intended requirements for the Sabbath] to do good on the Sabbath.’” Then he healed a man on the Sabbath. - Matt. 12:10-13.

It is clear, then, that healing on the Sabbath was actually lawful in God’s eyes but unlawful in the eyes of the Jewish authorities only!

Obviously the Apostle John knew that Jesus had healed lawfully on the Sabbath. He knew that Jesus would never break the Sabbath as lawfully established by God. Only Jesus’ Jewish opponents believed Jesus was breaking the Sabbath!

Therefore, John could not possibly be saying that Jesus was “breaking the sabbath” (John 5:18). Obviously, instead, this is what Jesus’ Jewish opponents were saying (or thinking).

So, in answer to the above, it must be the Jews who are saying at John 5:18 “not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal [ison] with God.” - NIV.

Furthermore, it is obvious that John would never distort God’s word by saying that if anyone calls God his Father, he is necessarily claiming to be equal with God! - John 8:41; Matt. 23:9; John 20:17; Is. 64:8; Jer. 3:4, 19; Luke 3:38; Ro. 8:14, 15; Gen. 6:2; Job 38:7. - It must have been the words of those who by their traditions “nullify the word of God.”

If it truly were John who, when writing this account long after Jesus’ death, inserted such a false accusation of his own (as Martin is really saying), then the following respected trinitarian scholars and translators would not have Jesus answering that ‘future’ (John’s Gospel was written over 50 years after Jesus’ death) inserted comment of John’s by speaking immediately to those Jews:
“So Jesus answered them, ‘I tell you, the Son cannot do anything of his own

accord ...” - John 5:19, An American Translation, Goodspeed.

"So Jesus said to them, .... " - English Standard Version.

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them,..." - King James Version
“So Jesus made this answer to them: ....” - Moffatt.

“So Jesus answered them: ...” - C.B. Williams.

“‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered them, ...” - William F. Beck.

“So Jesus answered them, ...” - Good News Bible.

“So Jesus answered them by saying, ...” - The Amplified Bible.

“To this charge Jesus replied, ....” - The New English Bible (and the REB).

“To this accusation Jesus replied: ...” - The Jerusalem Bible.

And The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English which has an interlinear literal word-for-word translation of the NT text by Rev. Alfred Marshall:
"Answered therefore - Jesus and said to them: ...."

How well do the above respected trinitarian renderings support Martin’s statement: “... nor is it contextually or grammatically allowable that John is here recording what the Jews said about Jesus, as Jehovah’s Witnesses lamely argue.”? These respected trinitarian translators have said Jesus replied to this accusation. He must have responded to the comment made at the time by the Jews!

Remember, Martin declared “No serious scholar or commentator has ever questioned it” (that John, not the Jews, said the words in question). But the following major trinitarian references contradict Martin and confirm the clear and necessary understanding that this was actually the Jews’ statement or thought (not John’s).
“The Jews taxed [Jesus] with making himself equal with God [at John 5:18].” - p. 499, Vol. 2, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1976, 1986.

“Our Lord’s opponents say that He has ‘called God his own Father [John 5:18].’” - The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 968, Vol. 2, Eerdman’s Publishing, 1956, 1984.

“[John 5] verse 18. Making himself equal with God. This the Jews understood from the preceding verse.” - Adam Clarke’s Commentary, 1826.

After quoting Jesus’ words of John 5:19, 20, Noted trinitarian scholar and translator Dr. William Barclay writes in his popular and respected Daily Study Bible Series:
“This is the beginning of Jesus’s answer to the Jews’ charge that he was making himself equal to God.” - p. 188, Vol. 1, The Gospel of John, Rev. ed., The Daily Study Bible Series, The Westminster Press, 1975.

Not only is The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, quoted above, one of the most respected and best-known trinitarian Bible encyclopedias (as also is The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology), but it was so known at the time Martin wrote his diatribe above. (“No serious scholar or commentator has ever questioned it”)!

Note:


[*] .For example the footnote for John 5:10 in The NIV Study Bible (1985) tells us: “It was not the law of Moses but their traditional interpretation of it that prohibited carrying loads of any kind on the Sabbath. The Jews had very strict [man-made] regulations on keeping the Sabbath….” And the footnote for John 7:22 says: “…. Jesus was not saying that the Sabbath should not be observed or that the Jewish regulations were too harsh. He was saying that his opponents did not understand what the Sabbath meant. The command to circumcise showed that sometimes work not only might be done on the Sabbath but must be done then. Deeds of mercy were in this category.” [My emphasis].

Thank you for your in depth contribution

 

[7djengo7]

Nice try, that is what John reported about what Jesus' enemies were saying.

John 5:18, of course, is not an instance of John reporting what Jesus' enemies were saying. Rather, in John 5:18, John reports that Jesus had broken the sabbath, that Jesus said that God was His Father, and that Jesus was making Himself equal with God. In John 5:18, John does not report that Jesus' enemies were saying that Jesus had broken the sabbath, nor that Jesus' enemies were saying that Jesus said that God was His Father, nor that Jesus' enemies were saying that Jesus was making Himself equal with God.

Show me one record of an incident where Jesus broke the Sabbath

In John 5:18, for instance, is John's record that Jesus had broken the sabbath.

Why are you against Jesus declaration that he always did the Father's will.

I'm not; Jesus always did/does His Father's will.

Why are you so intent on doing the will of your father, Satan, and thus so intent on blaspheming Jesus Christ?

It is not the Father's will that anyone disobey him, not even His son.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, has never disobeyed His Father's will, even in His having broken the sabbath, as John, in John 5:18, declares He had done.

I still await you to present an incident where Jesus broke the Sabbath.

I still await you to make John 5:18--in which John records that Jesus had broken the sabbath--disappear out of the Bible.

Or, if you prefer, I still await you to present a Bible verse in which we read:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because THE JEWS SAID he had broken the sabbath...

Of course, you'll not find John 5:18 to be so, for, in John 5:18, we read:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath...

Also, I still await you to present a Bible verse in which Jesus, or anyone else, states, in contradiction to John 5:18, that Jesus had NOT broken the sabbath. Have fun with that.

Why do you accuse Jesus of sinning? You need to learn to rightly divide the word of truth if you desire to stand approved before God

Of course, I've never accused Jesus of sinning. Nay, I've explicitly stated, and repeated, that Jesus has never sinned, and that, according to John, in John 5:18, Jesus had also broken the sabbath.

Why do you worship your father, Satan, you sanctimonious, self-righteous, Bible-despising, anti-Christ, heretick hypocrite?

Why do you refuse to believe John 5:18?

 

[Tigger 2]

7dj wrote:

I still await you to present a Bible verse in which we read:
'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because THE JEWS SAID he had broken the sabbath...'
----------------------------------------

This made the Jews more determined than ever to kill Him, for not only was He breaking the Sabbath [from their viewpoint], but He was also calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. - AMP.

This made them even more determined to kill him. They thought it was bad enough that he was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. And now he was saying that God is his Father, making himself equal with God! - ERV.

This made ·them [the Jewish leaders; the Jews] try still harder to kill him. They said, “First Jesus was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. Now he says that God is his own Father, making himself equal with God!” - EXB.

This made the Jews try harder to kill him. They said, “First Jesus was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. Then he said that God is his own Father! He is making himself equal with God!” - ICB.

This made them try still harder to kill him. They said, “First Jesus was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. Now he says that God is his own Father, making himself equal with God!” - NCV.

For this reason the Jewish leaders tried even harder to kill him. According to them, Jesus was not only breaking the law of the Sabbath day. He was even calling God his own Father. He was making himself equal with God. - NIRV.

 

[7djengo7]

7dj wrote:

I still await you to present a Bible verse in which we read:
'Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because THE JEWS SAID he had broken the sabbath...'
----------------------------------------

You knew, as you were composing this heap of dung of a post of yours, that you have nothing. So, you not only, as a coward, chose to not use the "Quote" feature to directly reply to my post, but you did not even write out my full name, "7djengo7", and instead wrote, merely, "7dj". Whom do you think you're fooling, Russellite?

This made the Jews more determined than ever to kill Him, for not only was He breaking the Sabbath [from their viewpoint], but He was also calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. - AMP.

Where do you get your phrase, "from their viewpoint"? It's not there--it has absolutely no basis in John's Greek. For what Greek noun have you put your English noun, "viewpoint"? You fail.

This made them even more determined to kill him. They thought it was bad enough that he was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. And now he was saying that God is his Father, making himself equal with God! - ERV.

In John 5:18, what's the Greek verb for which you have put your English verb, "viewpoint"?

In John 5:18, what's the Greek noun for which you have put your English noun, "law"?

This made ·them [the Jewish leaders; the Jews] try still harder to kill him. They said, “First Jesus was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. Now he says that God is his own Father, making himself equal with God!” - EXB.

Not a word in John's Greek, in John 5:18, about anything any Jewish leaders said.

Please give us John's Greek, in John 5:18, for your phrase, "They said".

This made the Jews try harder to kill him. They said, “First Jesus was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. Then he said that God is his own Father! He is making himself equal with God!” - ICB.

Not a word in John's Greek, in John 5:18, about anything any Jewish leaders said.​

Please give us John's Greek, in John 5:18, for your phrase, "They said".​

This made them try still harder to kill him. They said, “First Jesus was breaking the law about the Sabbath day. Now he says that God is his own Father, making himself equal with God!” - NCV.

Not a word in John's Greek, in John 5:18, about anything any Jewish leaders said.​

Please give us John's Greek, in John 5:18, for your phrase, "They said".​

For this reason the Jewish leaders tried even harder to kill him. According to them, Jesus was not only breaking the law of the Sabbath day. He was even calling God his own Father. He was making himself equal with God. - NIRV.

Please give us that part of John's Greek text, in John 5:18, from which you imagine you get your phrase, "According to them".

It's funny that you heaped up all this garbage, from all these different "Bible translations", and you did not even present your own Russellite cult's "New World Translation" regarding John 5:18:

This is why the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God.

It's downright hilarious that your own, precious "NWT" inexorably embarrasses you at John 5:18, regarding your failed, anti-Bible, joke of a plea on behalf of your anti-Christ heresy! Here's a place where the "NWT" is just quite all right, for, just as we find in John's Greek, the "NWT" says absolutely nothing about anything the Jews said, and absolutely nothing about what was "according to" the Jews, and absolutely nothing about any "viewpoint" of the Jews.

LOL @ Tigger 2, the Russellite, disowning his own cult's "NWT" regarding John 5:18!

(Don't fret: Maybe your programmers/handlers from the Watchtower Society will fix this little glitch in their remaking of their "NWT"--you know, to eliminate as much actual Bible from the "NWT" as they can.)

Maybe your shallow, fellow anti-Christ (though non-Russellite) heretic, oatmeal, will mindlessly praise you for just how "in depth" you got in this, your latest post; why, you got so "in depth" that you totally buried your futile heretical apologetic under a dungheap of your own construction.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Why won't I answer your questions?

Yes. Because as far as I can tell, nothing you said in this post answered my questions to you.

for one thing this thread is not about whether Jesus kept the sabbath, which of course he did,

False.

He did not keep the sabbath.

If you had read the entire chapter, you would know that he did not.

He would not be always doing his Father's will, as he made plain he did, if he went around breaking the laws of Moses.

False.

Jesus broke the sabbath, according to John 5.

Nothing he did on the sabbath could be construed as breaking the sabbath as God instituted it.

False.

You need to learn your Bible better.

Let me make this easy for you to understand.

Jesus (in verse 8) told a man on the Sabbath day to [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walk.”[/JESUS]

Doing any work (including carrying a bed, even gathering sticks) on the sabbath classifies as breaking the sabbath, and was a capital crime.

Telling someone to break the law makes you complicit in the act, meaning Jesus, in telling the man to carry his bed, made Him complicit in Sabbath desecration.

Thus, in verse 18, John accurately records Jesus as having broken the Sabbath.

He healed people on the sabbath, that does not break the Sabbath, regardless of the opinions of the enemies of God and Christ.

Who said anything about healing people breaking the sabbath?

Jesus told a man to carry his bed, on a Sabbath day.

Jesus told a man to work on the Sabbath.

That makes Him a co-conspirator in the act, if not directly responsible for someone breaking the sabbath.

Jesus did, in fact, break the sabbath, not by healing a man, but by telling a man to carry his bed.

He did good works on the Sabbath, that does not break the Sabbath as God instituted the requirements of keeping the Sabbath.

:yawn:

The enemies of God and of His Christ accused the son of God of breaking the Sabbath, but they were enemies of the truth

The enemies of God didn't write the gospel of John.

John the Apostle did.

So, either John was lying when He recorded Jesus telling a man to [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walk,"[/JESUS] which is a violation of the sabbath, or John was telling the truth.

So was John telling the truth?

When you realize that it was the enemies of the Christ that said he broke the Sabbath,

Sorry, but that doesn't work either.

The "enemies of God" didn't know who told the formerly lame man to [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walk,"[/JESUS], because the man himself didn't know it was Jesus, they only found out after the fact.

then you realize is that John is reporting what unbelievers and God rejecters thought he was doing.

Again, John wasn't lying when he recorded Jesus as telling a man to break the sabbath, specifically His words: [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walkr"[/JESUS].

John also wrote the following

John 7:20
The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

Was John saying that the people were right? or was John simply reporting what others falsely accused Jesus of doing?

John was ACCURATELY RECORDING the events that had transpired during Jesus' ministry.

That includes words and things that people did.

Your logic doesn't follow that if John records the enemies saying false things, that therefore everything that they say about Jesus is false. That's a non-sequitur.

John recorded Jesus as having broken the sabbath, not just in John 5:18, but also in John 5:8, telling a man to do work on the sabbath.

 

[oatmeal]

Yes. Because as far as I can tell, nothing you said in this post answered my questions to you.



False.

He did not keep the sabbath.

If you had read the entire chapter, you would know that he did not.



False.

Jesus broke the sabbath, according to John 5.



False.

You need to learn your Bible better.

Let me make this easy for you to understand.

Jesus (in verse 8) told a man on the Sabbath day to [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walk.”[/JESUS]

Doing any work (including carrying a bed, even gathering sticks) on the sabbath classifies as breaking the sabbath, and was a capital crime.

Telling someone to break the law makes you complicit in the act, meaning Jesus, in telling the man to carry his bed, made Him complicit in Sabbath desecration.

Thus, in verse 18, John accurately records Jesus as having broken the Sabbath.



Who said anything about healing people breaking the sabbath?

Jesus told a man to carry his bed, on a Sabbath day.

Jesus told a man to work on the Sabbath.

That makes Him a co-conspirator in the act, if not directly responsible for someone breaking the sabbath.

Jesus did, in fact, break the sabbath, not by healing a man, but by telling a man to carry his bed.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jesus did the will of the Father, the Father would not tell Jesus to disobey the law of Moses. However, you must understand that the law and the prophets were until John, the law ended with John the B. Jesus being the king and prophet ushered in a new age




The enemies of God didn't write the gospel of John.

John the Apostle did.

So, either John was lying when He recorded Jesus telling a man to [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walk,"[/JESUS] which is a violation of the sabbath, or John was telling the truth.

So was John telling the truth?



Sorry, but that doesn't work either.

The "enemies of God" didn't know who told the formerly lame man to [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walk,"[/JESUS], because the man himself didn't know it was Jesus, they only found out after the fact.



Again, John wasn't lying when he recorded Jesus as telling a man to break the sabbath, specifically His words: [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walkr"[/JESUS].



John was ACCURATELY RECORDING the events that had transpired during Jesus' ministry.

That includes words and things that people did.

Your logic doesn't follow that if John records the enemies saying false things, that therefore everything that they say about Jesus is false. That's a non-sequitur.

John recorded Jesus as having broken the sabbath, not just in John 5:18, but also in John 5:8, telling a man to do work on the sabbath.

Since Jesus is the lord of the sabbath and not a hypocrite as his detractors and enemies are, he would have kept the sabbath in every way.

It is too bad that the legalists so screwed up the laws concerning the sabbath that you would be carried away with their error.

God wants our need to be met, regardless of the day of the week.

Jesus' critics falsely accused him of breaking the sabbath.

Jesus, being honest, would have said if he had broken the sabbath.

Telling a man to go home and to take his bedding with him is not work, it is going home and taking his bed mat with him.

Is wearing clothes and carrying them on your body breaking the sabbath?

You seem to think so.

Why do you want to see Jesus be guilty of sin?

Why do you go to such lengths to deny his complete and absolute obedience to the one true God?

 

[7djengo7]

Yes. Because as far as I can tell, nothing you said in this post answered my questions to you.



False.

He did not keep the sabbath.

If you had read the entire chapter, you would know that he did not.



False.

Jesus broke the sabbath, according to John 5.



False.

You need to learn your Bible better.

Let me make this easy for you to understand.

Jesus (in verse 8) told a man on the Sabbath day to [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walk.”[/JESUS]

Doing any work (including carrying a bed, even gathering sticks) on the sabbath classifies as breaking the sabbath, and was a capital crime.

Telling someone to break the law makes you complicit in the act, meaning Jesus, in telling the man to carry his bed, made Him complicit in Sabbath desecration.

Thus, in verse 18, John accurately records Jesus as having broken the Sabbath.



Who said anything about healing people breaking the sabbath?

Jesus told a man to carry his bed, on a Sabbath day.

Jesus told a man to work on the Sabbath.

That makes Him a co-conspirator in the act, if not directly responsible for someone breaking the sabbath.

Jesus did, in fact, break the sabbath, not by healing a man, but by telling a man to carry his bed.



:yawn:



The enemies of God didn't write the gospel of John.

John the Apostle did.

So, either John was lying when He recorded Jesus telling a man to [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walk,"[/JESUS] which is a violation of the sabbath, or John was telling the truth.

So was John telling the truth?



Sorry, but that doesn't work either.

The "enemies of God" didn't know who told the formerly lame man to [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walk,"[/JESUS], because the man himself didn't know it was Jesus, they only found out after the fact.



Again, John wasn't lying when he recorded Jesus as telling a man to break the sabbath, specifically His words: [JESUS]“Rise, take up your bed and walkr"[/JESUS].



John was ACCURATELY RECORDING the events that had transpired during Jesus' ministry.

That includes words and things that people did.

Your logic doesn't follow that if John records the enemies saying false things, that therefore everything that they say about Jesus is false. That's a non-sequitur.

John recorded Jesus as having broken the sabbath, not just in John 5:18, but also in John 5:8, telling a man to do work on the sabbath.

Excellent post, my friend!

 

[7djengo7]

Since Jesus is the lord of the sabbath and not a hypocrite as his detractors and enemies are, he would have kept the sabbath in every way.

Now's the time for you to list out for us "every way" you say there is to "have kept the sabbath".

 

[oatmeal]

Now's the time for you to list out for us "every way" you say there is to "have kept the sabbath".

Since Jesus always did the will of the Father, can you imagine for even one moment that Jesus would have disobeyed the Father by breaking the sabbath laws?

Matthew 26:42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Since Jesus was willing to obey God facing the most horrendous torture and death, don't you think he could have and would have obeyed the Father in keeping the Sabbath?

Since you are so focused on John 5 please focus on

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Do you think God would be pleased with a son that disobeyed him?


Matthew 17:5
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

John 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.


It is when we rightly divide the word of truth that we are approved before God, not when we are promoting unbiblical theories and doctrines

 

[7djengo7]

​

Now's the time for you to list out for us "every way" you say there is to "have kept the sabbath".​

​

<NO ANSWER>

 

[Ps82]

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

What was Jesus saying?
Who or what is he saying that he is?
Is he saying that he is something?
Or is he simply saying that “Before Abraham was born, I am” That is, since I was foretold of in Genesis 3:15, well before Abe showed up on the scene or in scripture, and what God says will be will be, I was in that sense, before Abraham both in planning for man’s redemption and salvation and in priority?

Let us look at other examples where Jesus uses the words “I am” ego eimi, and what he follows up with saying he is.

Jesus said “I am good”
Matthew 20:15
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Is Gabriel claiming to be the “I am”?
Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
Jesus said I am or I am the bread of life?
John 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:48
I am that bread of life.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Did Jesus say I am or I am the light of the world?
John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Did Jesus claim to be the I am or did he claim to be one that bears witness of himself?
John 8:18
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Who does Jesus he is?

So far, bread of life, light of the world, one that bears witness of himself and other things.
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Did Jesus claim to be the “I am” or the door of the sheep?
John 10:7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
God or the good shepherd?
John 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Based on Jesus being able to speak complete sentences as in the examples above when he speaks saying “I am” and telling us what he is, if Jesus was telling us that he is the “I am”, that is claiming to be God, he most certainly would have said so!!

He would have said, Before Abraham was, I am the I am

Or if he used God’s full phrase
Before Abraham was, I am the I am that I am.

Why didn’t Jesus say what he was in John 8:58?

Because he was simply speaking of him being the redeemer and savior spoken of in Genesis 3:15 and throughout the word of God.

Hi Oatmeal. I have been gone so long from TOL I'll bet you don't remember me. Just had some time today to check back at TOL. Loved your topic. Great collection of I AM statements!

My thoughts: Jesus could claim to be the I AM because he existed with God, as the WORD of God, and was God before the creation of the world as we know it. Therefore, he certainly existed before Abraham. Abraham on knew God as God Almighty. It was not until the days of Moses that the name LORD/YHWH/Jehovah was introduced. Exodus 6:3 and 3:2-6. These two excerpts explain that both Abraham and Moses saw the presence of the Great I AM God. They just each knew him when he appeared by different names.

When Jesus said: "Before Abraham I AM" means that Jesus was in existence even before Abraham was.

You might ask: How? God is an invisible Spirit but Genesis told us he had an image for himself. In fact, God tells us that this one image belonged to more than one. God said: Let's make man in OUR [plural] image [singular]. It seems God had plans in the future to use his ONE image more than once. First the invisible God appeared as what we know as the heavenly Father. In the days of Moses 24 men of Israel clearly saw God's body of heaven and had a meal in His presence without being harmed by His glory. Exodus 24:10. This heavenly presence became known as the Father and I do believe that the theology experts in Jesus's day understood that a Son was prophesied to come from the Father and that Son would be God the Savior/Messiah. That is why they became so upset when Jesus spoke of God as HIS FATHER. They understood that he was claiming to BE GOD! They just didn't want to accept it as the truth.

Isaiah 43:11 is where this miracle of God being LORD and Lord Messiah/Savior is explained. My rendition: I [God], even I AM the LORD [ aka -YHWH,Jehovah] BESIDE [or besides] ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR. This is why the religious men in Jesus's day understood that Jesus was claiming to be God, LORD, Savior.

Wow! God had used His one image a second time. First time a heavenly super-natural body. Second time a fleshly mortal body. Same presence just a different composition! God was to be our Father in Heaven and our Savior on earth. ONE God known as two personages according to the works they performed. Remember Jesus said this: My Father {The LORD] worketh hitherto, and [now] I [as Lord the Son] work. For this the Jews sought the more to kill him because saying this meant that Jesus was making himself to be God. Read John 5:17-19 for yourself. They knew of the truth but they did not accept the truth!!!

Jesus had every right to claim these things about himself: Paraphrasing in some instances:
1.) The Son, whom I AM, does nothing of himself but only what he sees the Father do. What ever the Son sees the Father do the Son does. John 5:19-20
2.) When you have seen my body you have seen the LORD's presence or image as well.
3.) The Father and I are ONE.
4.) You call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I AM. John 13:13

John the Baptist explained: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the WORDS of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto HIM. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand. John 4:34-35. Verse 36 tells us the Son, being God, has the power to give eternal life to those who believe in Him for who He is as the Messiah.

NOW for your original question: John 8:58 Verily, verily, I say unto you, "Before Abraham was, I AM.
Pretty much Jesus was once again claiming to be God who promised to come as the Savior. Isaiah 43:11 I [God] even I AM the LORD, beside ME there is no Savior.

God came to Abraham and told him plainly: Genesis 15:1 After these things the WORD of the LORD [God] came unto Abrahm in a vision, saying, "Fear not, Abram: I AM thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

WOW ... The WORD, who was with God and was God, existed before Abram/ham and came to Abraham and he understood that this WORD of God, who was God, was his true protector and The Exceeding Great Reward promised to come from his lineage through Isaac.

Abraham knew this: John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it, and was glad. [I would write the verse like this: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see revelations of my day and he comprehended it, and he rejoiced over what he understood.]

Many of the other verses you quoted regarding the I AM statements referred to types and shadows. For one instance: I AM the bread.
This related to how Manna was sent to sustain life for the children of Israel for near 40 years during their wandering in the desert. A shadow for how the Messiah, who would be God, Father, and the begotten Son, would be the true bread of life that had the power to sustain life indefinitely.

 

[Theo102]

The actual manuscripts we have of John 8 (and all other NT scriptures) were written entirely in majuscules (capitals). So there is no reason (except for trinitarian reasons) to capitalize "I am" at John 8:58.

Another reason is to draw an association between the Messiah's pre-existence and the shared oneness of Elohim. This shared oneness is described later in John:

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:11

Furthermore, the second half of this trinity 'proof' at Exodus 3:14,15 is that this one-time-only use of the 'name' of God (Hebrew: ehyeh) is translated as 'I am.' In reality it is the one-time-only explanation of the meaning of God's only name (YHWH - Ps. 83:18, KJV). The actual name of God is given many thousands of times in the OT and is not ehyeh but YHWH ('Jehovah' in KJV, Youngs, and ASV or Yahweh in JB).

You're conflating YHWH with Elohim. YHWH is one, but Elohim is many acting as one. "God" is ambiguous.

In fact, in every other use of ehyeh found in all of Moses' writings it is understood to mean 'I will be' as in Exodus 3:12 for a nearby example. But this is seldom pointed out in trinitarian Bibles.

Exodus 3:12 can be interpreted as "I am with you", which is consistent with Moses being of the Elohim. (Exodus 7:1, 19:25-20:1)