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What is Jesus saying in John 8:58 and what is he not saying?

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  • Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

    He did not say "I am God" in John 8:58.

    Why do you pervert his statement, his words?
    Jesus said that he is God but in a way that someone like yourself could deny it
    and others would want to stone him .

    Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
    Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
    Joh 8:59 Because of this, they took up stones that they might throw them on Him. But Jesus was hidden, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
      What new evidence did you provide?

      For that matter, what evidence did you provide?
      I searched old Biblical manuscripts for potential irregularities in how the name of God was rendered here, both in Greek and Aramaic, and reported the results, as well as searching the early church father's commentaries on the verse and finding how far back the tradition linking it to Exodus goes.

      I daresay it's the only actual evidence that anybody in this topic has provided so far. Everything else here is just... people's interpretations of verses, dialectical syllogisms, socratic questions, people publishing their opinions as if they had any weight behind them whatsoever, and a good bit of rhetoric.

      Jarrod

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
        Was Jesus making himself equal to God? No, he was not. John 5 tells us that what Jesus did and had was given to him,

        John 5:

        18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

        19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

        20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

        21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

        22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

        23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

        30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


        You're an outright Bible-despising, Christ-despising, lying anti-Christ, for John explicitly states that Jesus, by saying that God was his Father, was making himself equal with God, and you flat out, blatantly contradict this truth that John stated, by saying "No, he was not."

        When you outright contradict explicit Gospel truth, as you've done here, why do you expect Christians to take your ravings seriously?
        All my ancestors are human.
        PS: All your ancestors are human.
        PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wick Stick View Post
          I searched old Biblical manuscripts for potential irregularities in how the name of God was rendered here, both in Greek and Aramaic, and reported the results, as well as searching the early church father's [sic] commentaries on the verse and finding how far back the tradition linking it to Exodus goes.

          I daresay it's the only actual evidence that anybody in this topic has provided so far. Everything else here is just... people's interpretations of verses, dialectical syllogisms, socratic questions, people publishing their opinions as if they had any weight behind them whatsoever, and a good bit of rhetoric.

          Jarrod
          Well, at least you admit that you are inimical to thinking logically. You disqualify yourself from being taken seriously, by your anti-logic mindset. It's funny that you consider yourself to be presenting something you call "actual evidence" (why not just say "evidence"? why do you need to say "actual evidence"? what would you say is the difference between evidence and what you call "actual evidence"?), and yet you disparage logical argument ("just...dialectical syllogisms"). If you think you have "actual evidence" for some claim you'd like to make, then use your "actual evidence" as a premise(s) to make an argument--a "dialectical syllogism"--in which the claim you'd like to make functions as a conclusion. Go ahead. Try it. What are you waiting for, Professor? C'mon, start throwin' all that copious weight around that you boast of.
          All my ancestors are human.
          PS: All your ancestors are human.
          PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wick Stick View Post
            I can see that you are the sort of fellow who, when confronted with new evidence that contradicts what you have said, simply repeat what you first said.

            There's not much point in continuing, then.
            I can see that you are the sort of fellow who, in lieu of trying to think systematically and rigorously regarding fundamental questions of epistemology, prefers to go around meaninglessly chirping the word, "evidence".

            If someone believes that the proposition, P, is true, he or she is an abject idiot to think that evidence can be contrary to P.

            "simply repeat what you first said"

            Because all you'd be doing is simply repeating your claim that you have presented what you call "evidence", you're right to say that there's not much point in your continuing in this thread.

            When someone does not agree with you in your claim that what you call "evidence" is evidence, I can see why you'd prefer to take your leave, rather than to be called upon to try to defend your claim that what you call "evidence" is evidence. Surely you don't expect others to simply take your word for it that what you call "evidence" is evidence, right?

            All my ancestors are human.
            PS: All your ancestors are human.
            PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

              Jesus said that he is God but in a way that someone like yourself could deny it
              and others would want to stone him .

              Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
              Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!
              Joh 8:59 Because of this, they took up stones that they might throw them on Him. But Jesus was hidden, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
              Your highly refined ability to read into scripture that which it does not say is noted
              "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

              "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

              Pro scripture = Protestant

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 7djengo7 View Post

                You're an outright Bible-despising, Christ-despising, lying anti-Christ, for John explicitly states that Jesus, by saying that God was his Father, was making himself equal with God, and you flat out, blatantly contradict this truth that John stated, by saying "No, he was not."

                When you outright contradict explicit Gospel truth, as you've done here, why do you expect Christians to take your ravings seriously?
                See, you are taking the position of Jesus Christ's enemies, for it is his enemies that conclude that God being the Father of Jesus makes Jesus equal with God.

                That's too bad
                "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                Pro scripture = Protestant

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wick Stick View Post
                  I searched old Biblical manuscripts for potential irregularities in how the name of God was rendered here, both in Greek and Aramaic, and reported the results, as well as searching the early church father's commentaries on the verse and finding how far back the tradition linking it to Exodus goes.

                  I daresay it's the only actual evidence that anybody in this topic has provided so far. Everything else here is just... people's interpretations of verses, dialectical syllogisms, socratic questions, people publishing their opinions as if they had any weight behind them whatsoever, and a good bit of rhetoric.

                  Jarrod
                  When the weight of all scripture that makes it clear that Jesus is the son of God, not "God the Son" then any interpretation of John 8:58 that concludes that Jesus is God is in error.

                  Have you not read John 20:31?

                  31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
                  "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                  "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                  Pro scripture = Protestant

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

                    The Jews knew exactly what He was saying. Why did they pick up stones to throw at Him?
                    Yes, they may have, however that didn't mattter to them. They were hell bent on murdering him on any false charge they could drum up.

                    Thus, anything Jesus said, they looked to twist to be able to destroy him.
                    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                    Pro scripture = Protestant

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bright Raven View Post

                      He is showing that He is the "I Am."
                      You have a wonderful imagination
                      "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                      "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                      Pro scripture = Protestant

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                        See, you are taking the position of Jesus Christ's enemies, for it is his enemies that conclude that God being the Father of Jesus makes Jesus equal with God.

                        That's too bad
                        You just called John, who penned the Gospel, an enemy of Jesus Christ.

                        What's too bad is that your lying father, the devil, has got blinders on you, so that you can't even read and understand the simplest Bible text. Here's what John said:

                        Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
                        Notice that it is John--and not the Jews who sought the more to kill Jesus--who is stating that Jesus
                        • had broken the sabbath, [making himself equal with God]
                        • said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God
                        It's John saying, "he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God"; if these Jews said that, or something similar, nevertheless, it is not recorded in the verse at hand. The verse is a record of what John said--it is not a record of what these Jews may, or may not, have said.

                        We do not read:

                        Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, [causing the Jews to mistakenly think he was] making himself equal with God.
                        We do not read:

                        Therefore the Jews accused him of having broken the sabbath, and of making himself equal with God by saying that God was his Father.
                        No. Rather, we read:

                        Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, BECAUSE he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

                        John is stating exactly what Jesus did that triggered these Jews to seek to kill Jesus.

                        John is not telling us what these Jews thought; John is telling us what these Jews sought: viz., they sought to kill Jesus.

                        John is telling us the cause (notice the word, "because", in the text) of their seeking to kill Jesus: the fact that Jesus had broken the sabbath, and made himself equal with God by saying that God was his Father.

                        You're the lying, Satanic, Bible-despising, anti-Christ hypocrite who is siding with those in the passage who sought the more to kill Jesus; you, like they were, are in self-righteous, arrogant, Christ-blaspheming denial of the Gospel truth that Jesus is equal with God the Father.
                        All my ancestors are human.
                        PS: All your ancestors are human.
                        PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 7djengo7 View Post

                          You just called John, who penned the Gospel, an enemy of Jesus Christ.

                          What's too bad is that your lying father, the devil, has got blinders on you, so that you can't even read and understand the simplest Bible text. Here's what John said:



                          Notice that it is John--and not the Jews who sought the more to kill Jesus--who is stating that Jesus
                          • had broken the sabbath, [making himself equal with God]
                          • said that God was his Father, making himself equal with God
                          It's John saying, "he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God"; if these Jews said that, or something similar, nevertheless, it is not recorded in the verse at hand. The verse is a record of what John said--it is not a record of what these Jews may, or may not, have said.

                          We do not read:



                          We do not read:



                          No. Rather, we read:




                          John is stating exactly what Jesus did that triggered these Jews to seek to kill Jesus.

                          John is not telling us what these Jews thought; John is telling us what these Jews sought: viz., they sought to kill Jesus.

                          John is telling us the cause (notice the word, "because", in the text) of their seeking to kill Jesus: the fact that Jesus had broken the sabbath, and made himself equal with God by saying that God was his Father.

                          You're the lying, Satanic, Bible-despising, anti-Christ hypocrite who is siding with those in the passage who sought the more to kill Jesus; you, like they were, are in self-righteous, arrogant, Christ-blaspheming denial of the Gospel truth that Jesus is equal with God the Father.
                          John wrote what God told him to write down.

                          God accurately tells both the truths for us to live and the errors to avoid.

                          Did Jesus break the Sabbath?

                          Did Jesus sin against the laws regarding the Sabbath? That is what they said.

                          You seem to agree with their assessment of Jesus Christ

                          Why would you agree with them not Jesus Christ?
                          "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                          "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                          Pro scripture = Protestant

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                            You have a wonderful imagination
                            Maybe, but what if not?
                            He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

                            Jim Elliot

                            Comment


                            • What is meant by - before Abraham I AM?
                              My conclusions according to scripture. I may not quote a bunch of scripture because things become lengthy but I have studied and found scripture for what I am about to write.

                              1.) God is an invisible Spirit.
                              2.) God manifested his presence in the form of a male image so that men and angels could behold him.
                              3.) God's presence appeared to men of old like Adam, Abraham, Moses, etc.
                              4.) At first he was only identified by men as being God Almighty. Exodus 6:3 Even Jacob did not know his name when he wrestled with him.
                              5.) Later, he specifically identified himself to Moses as I AM, but Moses explained more who he was.Exodus 3:6,14.
                              6.) Moses not only heard God identify himself as I AM but shared another name as well. Most people skip right over it. It is interpreted as LORD in KJV. v.15 says: And God said moreover unto Moses; "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, 'The LORD God of your Fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob [people who only knew me as God Almighty], hath sent me [Moses] unto you [people of Israel saying]:' this is My Name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.'" IOW, God was forever to be known to Israel and all his followers as I AM The LORD God/ Jehovah,YHWH.
                              7.) When Jesus told the Jewish religious experts that he was the I AM who even existed before Abraham they UNDERSTOOD he was telling them he was God Almighty of Abraham/ the eternal one or The I AM of, the LORD God of Moses and Israel, who had finally arrived as God the Savior.

                              When all things known are put together I think this NT verse explains it well: John 1:18
                              No man hath seen God [the Spirit] at any time; [who came as] the only begotten Son, which is [now] in the bosom of the Father [who was the LORD God of Israel], he [John the Baptist] hath declared him [the Son to be God and LORD seen in flesh].

                              Is it any wonder that Jesus said: You call me Lord and rightly so.
                              Is it any wonder that Jesus said: When you have seen the Father LORD you have seen me. We are one.
                              Is it any wonder that the Spirit of God was not withheld from him by any mere measures? John 3:34
                              He was fully God/I AM, the the Almighty, the LORD God, as well as God the Lord Savior. Is. 43:11

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ps82 View Post
                                What is meant by - before Abraham I AM?
                                My conclusions according to scripture. I may not quote a bunch of scripture because things become lengthy but I have studied and found scripture for what I am about to write.

                                1.) God is an invisible Spirit.
                                2.) God manifested his presence in the form of a male image so that men and angels could behold him.
                                3.) God's presence appeared to men of old like Adam, Abraham, Moses, etc.
                                4.) At first he was only identified by men as being God Almighty. Exodus 6:3 Even Jacob did not know his name when he wrestled with him.
                                5.) Later, he specifically identified himself to Moses as I AM, but Moses explained more who he was.Exodus 3:6,14.
                                6.) Moses not only heard God identify himself as I AM but shared another name as well. Most people skip right over it. It is interpreted as LORD in KJV. v.15 says: And God said moreover unto Moses; "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, 'The LORD God of your Fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob [people who only knew me as God Almighty], hath sent me [Moses] unto you [people of Israel saying]:' this is My Name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.'" IOW, God was forever to be known to Israel and all his followers as I AM The LORD God/ Jehovah,YHWH.
                                7.) When Jesus told the Jewish religious experts that he was the I AM who even existed before Abraham they UNDERSTOOD he was telling them he was God Almighty of Abraham/ the eternal one or The I AM of, the LORD God of Moses and Israel, who had finally arrived as God the Savior.

                                When all things known are put together I think this NT verse explains it well: John 1:18
                                No man hath seen God [the Spirit] at any time; [who came as] the only begotten Son, which is [now] in the bosom of the Father [who was the LORD God of Israel], he [John the Baptist] hath declared him [the Son to be God and LORD seen in flesh].

                                Is it any wonder that Jesus said: You call me Lord and rightly so.
                                Is it any wonder that Jesus said: When you have seen the Father LORD you have seen me. We are one.
                                Is it any wonder that the Spirit of God was not withheld from him by any mere measures? John 3:34
                                He was fully God/I AM, the the Almighty, the LORD God, as well as God the Lord Savior. Is. 43:11
                                Right, Jesus is God with a body. Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God come as a man, and existed with an immortal body in the Old Testament times before coming to earth.

                                Comment

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