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What is Jesus saying in John 8:58 and what is he not saying?

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  • What is Jesus saying in John 8:58 and what is he not saying?

    John 8:58
    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    What was Jesus saying?
    Who or what is he saying that he is?
    Is he saying that he is something?
    Or is he simply saying that “Before Abraham was born, I am” That is, since I was foretold of in Genesis 3:15, well before Abe showed up on the scene or in scripture, and what God says will be will be, I was in that sense, before Abraham both in planning for man’s redemption and salvation and in priority?

    Let us look at other examples where Jesus uses the words “I am” ego eimi, and what he follows up with saying he is.

    Jesus said “I am good”
    Matthew 20:15
    Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

    Is Gabriel claiming to be the “I am”?
    Luke 1:19
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
    Jesus said I am or I am the bread of life?
    John 6:35
    And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    John 6:48
    I am that bread of life.
    John 6:51
    I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    Did Jesus say I am or I am the light of the world?
    John 8:12
    Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
    Did Jesus claim to be the I am or did he claim to be one that bears witness of himself?
    John 8:18
    I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
    Who does Jesus he is?

    So far, bread of life, light of the world, one that bears witness of himself and other things.
    John 8:24
    I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    John 8:28
    Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
    Did Jesus claim to be the “I am” or the door of the sheep?
    John 10:7
    Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
    God or the good shepherd?
    John 10:11
    I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    Based on Jesus being able to speak complete sentences as in the examples above when he speaks saying “I am” and telling us what he is, if Jesus was telling us that he is the “I am”, that is claiming to be God, he most certainly would have said so!!

    He would have said, Before Abraham was, I am the I am

    Or if he used God’s full phrase
    Before Abraham was, I am the I am that I am.

    Why didn’t Jesus say what he was in John 8:58?

    Because he was simply speaking of him being the redeemer and savior spoken of in Genesis 3:15 and throughout the word of God.
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

  • #2
    Jesus is saying "that while he was a man, he was also endowed with another nature existing before Abraham" (Barnes' Notes on the Bible). Jesus was fully divine of the Spirit of God ("God is spirit.." John 4:24). When Jesus said "I am" the Jews knew He was referring to God.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
      John 8:58
      Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

      Spoiler
      What was Jesus saying?
      Who or what is he saying that he is?
      Is he saying that he is something?
      Or is he simply saying that “Before Abraham was born, I am” That is, since I was foretold of in Genesis 3:15, well before Abe showed up on the scene or in scripture, and what God says will be will be, I was in that sense, before Abraham both in planning for man’s redemption and salvation and in priority?

      Let us look at other examples where Jesus uses the words “I am” ego eimi, and what he follows up with saying he is.

      Jesus said “I am good”
      Matthew 20:15
      Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

      Is Gabriel claiming to be the “I am”?
      Luke 1:19
      And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
      Jesus said I am or I am the bread of life?
      John 6:35
      And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
      John 6:48
      I am that bread of life.
      John 6:51
      I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
      Did Jesus say I am or I am the light of the world?
      John 8:12
      Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
      Did Jesus claim to be the I am or did he claim to be one that bears witness of himself?
      John 8:18
      I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
      Who does Jesus he is?

      So far, bread of life, light of the world, one that bears witness of himself and other things.
      John 8:24
      I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
      John 8:28
      Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
      Did Jesus claim to be the “I am” or the door of the sheep?
      John 10:7
      Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
      God or the good shepherd?
      John 10:11
      I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

      Based on Jesus being able to speak complete sentences as in the examples above when he speaks saying “I am” and telling us what he is, if Jesus was telling us that he is the “I am”, that is claiming to be God, he most certainly would have said so!!

      He would have said, Before Abraham was, I am the I am

      Or if he used God’s full phrase
      Before Abraham was, I am the I am that I am
      .

      Why didn’t Jesus say what he was in John 8:58?

      Because he was simply speaking of him being the redeemer and savior spoken of in Genesis 3:15 and throughout the word of God.


      Joh 8:59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and passed on by.

      Why didn’t Jesus say what he was in John 8:58?
      So you could deny Jesus is God

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bradley D View Post
        Jesus is saying "that while he was a man, he was also endowed with another nature existing before Abraham" (Barnes' Notes on the Bible). Jesus was fully divine of the Spirit of God ("God is spirit.." John 4:24). When Jesus said "I am" the Jews knew He was referring to God.
        Well, thanks for your reply

        People still misunderstand him today.

        Please read my reply to way 2 go below
        "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

        "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

        Pro scripture = Protestant

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by way 2 go View Post


          Joh 8:59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and passed on by.


          So you could deny Jesus is God
          Yes, that is correct, after all did Jesus ever claim to be God? Did he say, "I am God" ?

          He did correct those that wanted him dead.

          John 10:31-33

          31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

          32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

          33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


          Did Jesus make himself to be God? No, not according to Jesus own words, he did not. He said he "I am the son of God"

          John 10:36

          36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
          "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

          "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

          Pro scripture = Protestant

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

            Yes, that is correct, after all did Jesus ever claim to be God? Did he say, "I am God" ?
            yes Jesus claimed to be God but in such away that it could be denied by people like you
            John 8:58
            Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

            He did correct those that wanted him dead.
            no , Jesus left

            Joh 8:59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and passed on by.


            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

              yes Jesus claimed to be God but in such away that it could be denied by people like you
              John 8:58
              Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


              no , Jesus left

              Joh 8:59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and passed on by.

              Reread the scriptures I provided.

              In a similar event in John 10, we read that people who hated him likewise accused him falsely

              They like trinitarians do, accused him of making himself God.

              Jesus corrects them and restates what he did say, I am the son of God

              Trinitarians continue to level the same false accusations against Jesus Christ as his enemies did back then.

              John 10:31-36.

              What a sorry lot you trinitarians are!
              "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

              "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

              Pro scripture = Protestant

              Comment


              • #8
                These translations (most by trinitarians) render ego eimi at John 8:58 as:
                (1) “I HAVE BEEN”[4] - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB

                (2) “I HAVE BEEN” - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes

                (3) “I HAVE BEEN” - “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis

                (4) “I HAVE ALREADY BEEN- The Unvarnished New Testament

                (5) “I HAVE EXISTED” - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt

                (6) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck

                (7) “I EXISTED” - An American Translation, Goodspeed

                (8) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams

                (9) “I EXISTED” - New Simplified Bible

                (10) “I WAS IN EXISTENCE” - Living Bible

                (11) “I WAS ALIVE” - The Simple English Bible

                (12)“I WAS” - Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed. (Also see Young’s Concise

                Critical Commentary, p. 61 of “The New Covenant.”).

                (13) “I WAS” - H. T. Anderson

                (14) “I WAS” - Twentieth Century New Testament

                (15) "I already was" - Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

                (16) "I existed" - New Living Translation (NLT)

                (17) "I WAS" - Holy Bible - From the Ancient eastern Text (Lamsa)

                (18) : "I have existed." - The Documents of the New Testament, (Wade)
                ...........................................

                4. Kenneth McKay, 'I AM' in John's Gospel 

                Kenneth L. McKay, who graduated with honors in Classics from the Universities of Sydney and Cambridge, taught Greek in universities and theological colleges in Nigeria, New Zealand, and England, who taught at the Australian National University for 26 years, has written numerous articles on ancient Greek syntax, as well as authored a book on Classical Attic, Greek Grammar for Students, and A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek: an aspectual approach, provides the following in relation to the alleged "true parallel between Exodus 3:14 (LXX) and John 8:58:

                - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                'I am' in John's Gospel

                The Expository Times, 1996, page 302

                BY K. L. MCKAY, MA,

                FORMERLY OF THE AUSTRALIAN UNIVERSITY

                - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                “It has become fashionable among some preachers and writers to relate Jesus's use of the words 'I am' in the Gospel according to John, in all, or most, of their contexts, to God's declaration to Moses in Exodus 3:14, and to expound the passages concerned as if the words themselves have some kind of magic in them. Some who have no more than a smattering of Greek attribute the 'magic' to the Greek words egw eimi [ego eimi]. I wish briefly to draw attention to the normality of the Greek in all such passages, and the unlikelihood of the words egw eimi being intended to suggest any special significance of this kind.  

                “….

                “Although the natural English translations differ, there are two contexts of this kind in which Jesus uses the words egw eimi alone to identify himself: in 6:20, where the disciples are afraid of the apparition they see walking on the water, and Jesus reassures them by identifying himself, quite naturally, with these words, which translate into English as 'It is I'; and in 18:5, while Jesus acknowledges that he is Jesus of Nazareth by speaking the same words, which are naturally translated into English as 'I am he'. The syntactic difference between them is that in the former egw is the complement, the unexpressed subject being something equivalent to 'what you see', and in the latter egw is the subject, the unexpressed complement being 'Jesus of Nazareth'. In both these passages egw eimi is the natural Greek response in the circumstances, as may be seen in 9:9, where the man cured of blindness uses exactly the same words to acknowledge his identity. The dramatic reaction of the arresting party in 18:6 is readily explained if we note that the confident authority of Jesus's presence was such that he defeated the merchants in the temple (2:15), and he simply walked away when the crowd was intent on throwing him over the brow of the hill near Nazareth (Luke 4:28-30). 

                “The verb 'to be' is used differently, in what is presumably its basic meaning of 'be in existence', in John 8:58: prin Abraam genesthai egw eimi, which would be most naturally translated 'I have been in existence since before Abraham was born', if it were not for the obsession with the simple words 'I am'. If we take the Greek words in their natural meaning, as we surely should, the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd's violent reaction.”
                Last edited by Tigger 2; April 27th, 2020, 03:38 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                  Reread the scriptures I provided.

                  In a similar event in John 10, we read that people who hated him likewise accused him falsely

                  They like trinitarians do, accused him of making himself God.

                  Jesus corrects them and restates what he did say, I am the son of God

                  Trinitarians continue to level the same false accusations against Jesus Christ as his enemies did back then.

                  John 10:31-36.

                  What a sorry lot you trinitarians are!
                  your moving goal post and ad hominem are noted

                  yes Jesus claimed to be God but in such away that it could be denied by people like you
                  John 8:58
                  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

                  where you deny Jesus claim to be God
                  the listeners understood Jesus and picked up stones to kill Jesus
                  But you both agree Jesus is not God

                  Joh 8:59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and passed on by.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The actual manuscripts we have of John 8 (and all other NT scriptures) were written entirely in majuscules (capitals). So there is no reason (except for trinitarian reasons) to capitalize "I am" at John 8:58.

                    In fact, Jesus is not identifying himself, but merely answering a question explaining that he existed before Abraham. This is different from the blind man who really was identifying himself at John 9:9 by saying ego eimi. Oddly enough, Trinitarian translators don't capitalize "I am" in this verse. Strange, huh?

                    Furthermore, the second half of this trinity 'proof' at Exodus 3:14,15 is that this one-time-only use of the 'name' of God (Hebrew: ehyeh) is translated as 'I am.' In reality it is the one-time-only explanation of the meaning of God's only name (YHWH - Ps. 83:18, KJV). The actual name of God is given many thousands of times in the OT and is not ehyeh but YHWH ('Jehovah' in KJV, Youngs, and ASV or Yahweh in JB).

                    In fact, in every other use of ehyeh found in all of Moses' writings it is understood to mean 'I will be' as in Exodus 3:12 for a nearby example. But this is seldom pointed out in trinitarian Bibles.


                    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....am-part-1.html

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                      your moving goal post and ad hominem are noted

                      yes Jesus claimed to be God but in such away that it could be denied by people like you
                      John 8:58
                      Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

                      where you deny Jesus claim to be God
                      the listeners understood Jesus and picked up stones to kill Jesus
                      But you both agree Jesus is not God

                      Joh 8:59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and passed on by.
                      Actually, I am not. after all the question is what Jesus was saying and that he remains misunderstood even today in John 8:58 is evidenced by the record in John 10 where he has to correct the the same error that trinitarians are making today.

                      Specifically, that Jesus did not ever claim to be God, as his enemies believed he was, but did claim, as he clarified in John 10:36

                      Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

                      Another reason this verse is germane as well, is that I could have, and maybe should have included John 10:36 in my list of scriptures in the opening post regariding places were Jesus specifically tells us who he is. Ie, I am the son of God.

                      In John 10:36 does he say

                      a. I am I am

                      b. or I am the son of God

                      I did not include this verse because only eimi, not ego eime is used in this verse, Eimi in this verse to be most clear in English is translated, "I am" If ego means "I" then without ego, the Greek could be translated, "Son of God am" instead of the clearer rendering "I am the son of God"

                      In John 8:58 he is not specific about any role or identity, but rather simply that he was and is indeed greater than "our father Abraham" verse 53 and 54

                      53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

                      54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

                      Jesus made it clear that he is greater than those believers, astounding believers that were his predecessors in time but not in priority

                      Matthew 12:41
                      The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

                      Matthew 12:42
                      The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

                      Luke 11

                      31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

                      32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

                      Is Jesus greater than Jacob?

                      John 4:12
                      Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?

                      Yes he is.

                      But Jesus also made it clear that his Father is greater than he.

                      John 14:28
                      Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

                      That Jesus Christ was before Abraham is clear, for the coming of the seed of the woman was announced in Genesis 3:15 long before Jesus existed except as in the foregone conclusion that he would bruise the serpent's head.


                      "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

                      "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

                      Pro scripture = Protestant

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                        These translations (most by trinitarians) render ego eimi at John 8:58 as:
                        (1) “I HAVE BEEN”
                        Spoiler
                        [4] - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB

                        (2) “I HAVE BEEN” - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes

                        (3) “I HAVE BEEN” - “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis

                        (4) “I HAVE ALREADY BEEN- The Unvarnished New Testament

                        (5) “I HAVE EXISTED” - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt

                        (6) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck

                        (7) “I EXISTED” - An American Translation, Goodspeed

                        (8) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams

                        (9) “I EXISTED” - New Simplified Bible
                        (10) “I WAS IN EXISTENCE” - Living Bible

                        (11) “I WAS ALIVE” - The Simple English Bible

                        (12)“I WAS” - Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed. (Also see Young’s Concise

                        Critical Commentary, p. 61 of “The New Covenant.”).

                        (13) “I WAS” - H. T. Anderson

                        (14) “I WAS” - Twentieth Century New Testament

                        (15) "I already was" - Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)

                        (16) "I existed" - New Living Translation (NLT)

                        (17) "I WAS" - Holy Bible - From the Ancient eastern Text (Lamsa)

                        (18) : "I have existed." - The Documents of the New Testament, (Wade)
                        See below * you cannot use English, to try and translate back into, or correct Greek. Translation only works one way.

                        In addition, most of these are paraphrases, rather than translations. The Living Bible, for example, wasn't done by a man who knew Greek, just wanted to make a bible his kids could read and understand.

                        Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                        ...........................................

                        4. Kenneth McKay, 'I AM' in John's Gospel 
                        Spoiler


                        Kenneth L. McKay, who graduated with honors in Classics from the Universities of Sydney and Cambridge, taught Greek in universities and theological colleges in Nigeria, New Zealand, and England, who taught at the Australian National University for 26 years, has written numerous articles on ancient Greek syntax, as well as authored a book on Classical Attic, Greek Grammar for Students, and A New Syntax of the Verb in New Testament Greek: an aspectual approach, provides the following in relation to the alleged "true parallel between Exodus 3:14 (LXX) and John 8:58:

                        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                        'I am' in John's Gospel

                        The Expository Times, 1996, page 302

                        BY Kenneth L. MCKAY, MA,

                        FORMERLY OF THE AUSTRALIAN UNIVERSITY

                        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

                        “It has become fashionable among some preachers and writers to relate Jesus's use of the words 'I am' in the Gospel according to John, in all, or most, of their contexts, to God's declaration to Moses in Exodus 3:14, and to expound the passages concerned as if the words themselves have some kind of magic in them. Some who have no more than a smattering of Greek attribute the 'magic' to the Greek words egw eimi [ego eimi]. I wish briefly to draw attention to the normality of the Greek in all such passages, and the unlikelihood of the words egw eimi being intended to suggest any special significance of this kind.  

                        “….

                        “Although the natural English translations differ, there are two contexts of this kind in which Jesus uses the words egw eimi alone to identify himself: in 6:20, where the disciples are afraid of the apparition they see walking on the water, and Jesus reassures them by identifying himself, quite naturally, with these words, which translate into English as 'It is I'; and in 18:5, while Jesus acknowledges that he is Jesus of Nazareth by speaking the same words, which are naturally translated into English as 'I am he'. The syntactic difference between them is that in the former egw is the complement, the unexpressed subject being something equivalent to 'what you see', and in the latter egw is the subject, the unexpressed complement being 'Jesus of Nazareth'. In both these passages egw eimi is the natural Greek response in the circumstances, as may be seen in 9:9, where the man cured of blindness uses exactly the same words to acknowledge his identity. The dramatic reaction of the arresting party in 18:6 is readily explained if we note that the confident authority of Jesus's presence was such that he defeated the merchants in the temple (2:15), and he simply walked away when the crowd was intent on throwing him over the brow of the hill near Nazareth (Luke 4:28-30). 

                        “The verb 'to be' is used differently, in what is presumably its basic meaning of 'be in existence', in John 8:58: prin Abraam genesthai egw eimi, which would be most naturally translated 'I have been in existence since before Abraham was born', if it were not for the obsession with the simple words 'I am'. If we take the Greek words in their natural meaning, as we surely should, the claim to have been in existence for so long is in itself a staggering one, quite enough to provoke the crowd's violent reaction.”

                        [/spoiler]
                        No K. L. MCKAY, MA., you are incorrect. #1 The context is given, clearly,concerning the divinity of Jesus Christ. John 8:41 "God is our Father!"
                        58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
                        #2 εἰμί (eimi) PIA (present, indicative, active), thus I "am" (not "was"). The only time you'd change this (AND CAREFULLY) is if a Greek expression didn't translate an idea well, in English.

                        *You cannot, then, use a translation (Tigger), in retrospect, to try and correct the Greek. That is a slippery slope and huge problem, as it'd allow anyone to rewrite meanings, which many without a language background attempt.

                        Kenneth McKay could probably teach me a thing or two regarding biblical language, but on this, the context as well as present active form of the verb, are in disagreement with the assertion. It simply means, as good of a Greek professor as he happened to be, he is incorrect on this particular. Could he teach me Greek? Sort of, but I'd be afraid of learning bad habits from him at this point and would have to pass. I'd have to decline. A present active state of being, in Greek, is familiar in English (Am) as well, thus it does invoke Exodus 3:14, if not for you, for most.
                        My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                        Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                        Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                        Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                        No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                        Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                        ? Yep

                        Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                        ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                        Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                          The actual manuscripts we have of John 8 (and all other NT scriptures) were written entirely in majuscules (capitals). So there is no reason (except for trinitarian reasons) to capitalize "I am" at John 8:58.
                          Not true. The structure of eimi (am) is present active. An aorist verb indicates a past action that is no longer happening now, thus "I was."
                          Thus, for Jesus to convey "I was" would have simply confirmed (in their minds) that Jesus was mentally unhinged, but "I Am" didn't cause them to confirm madness, instead it infuriated them to pick up stones. The context itself drives the translation, thus you are incorrect that this is Trinitarian driven.

                          Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                          In fact, Jesus is not identifying himself, but merely answering a question explaining that he existed before Abraham. This is different from the blind man who really was identifying himself at John 9:9 by saying ego eimi. Oddly enough, Trinitarian translators don't capitalize "I am" in this verse. Strange, huh?
                          Except that citing John 9:9 is given in the present, thus translates exactly as John 5:58 "I am." Strange? Not in John 9:9. It is strange for John 8:58, thus "I Am" being the direct, exact translation must therefore 1) stand against Abraham's 'was' (Abraham still 'exists' and so Jesus could have used present active for him as well, He was teaching something) and 2) stand as a challenge that prompted His stoning. then 3) against 'was' in speaking of His preexistence.

                          Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                          Furthermore, the second half of this trinity 'proof' at Exodus 3:14,15 is that this one-time-only use of the 'name' of God (Hebrew: ehyeh) is translated as 'I am.' In reality it is the one-time-only explanation of the meaning of God's only name (YHWH - Ps. 83:18, KJV). The actual name of God is given many thousands of times in the OT and is not ehyeh but YHWH ('Jehovah' in KJV, Youngs, and ASV or Yahweh in JB).
                          YHWH is given as His name in Exodus too, what do you mean?

                          Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                          In fact, in every other use of ehyeh found in all of Moses' writings it is understood to mean 'I will be' as in Exodus 3:12 for a nearby example. But this is seldom pointed out in trinitarian Bibles.


                          http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot....am-part-1.html
                          Careful, link-dropping is against TOL rules. It is an infraction. "I will be" is future tense, not past, so it cannot help you nor can it be used for 'us/them' mentality for or against Trinitarians. It is a completely different discussion than the one presently discussed here, as well. Its apples and oranges
                          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                          ? Yep

                          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by oatmeal View Post

                            Yes, that is correct, after all did Jesus ever claim to be God? Did he say, "I am God" ?
                            By "God", do you mean God the Father? Is this what you're asking: "Did Jesus ever claim to be [God the Father]? Did he say, "I am [God the Father]"?

                            If not, then whom, or what, do you mean by "God", here?

                            Originally posted by oatmeal View Post
                            He did correct those that wanted him dead.

                            John 10:31-33

                            31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

                            32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

                            33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
                            Would you say that these Jews were accusing Jesus of making himself God the Father?



                            All my ancestors are human.
                            PS: All your ancestors are human.
                            PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                              In fact, Jesus is not identifying himself, but merely answering a question explaining that he existed before Abraham.
                              For "merely answering a question explaining that he existed before Abraham", the Jews took up stones to cast at Jesus (v. 59)?

                              Originally posted by Tigger 2 View Post
                              The actual name of God is given many thousands of times in the OT and is not ehyeh but YHWH ('Jehovah' in KJV, Youngs, and ASV or Yahweh in JB).
                              Is 'God' not "the actual name of God"?

                              How do you decide whether or not something is "the actual name" of someone or something?





                              All my ancestors are human.
                              PS: All your ancestors are human.
                              PPS: To all you cats, dogs, monkeys, and other assorted house pets whose masters are outsourcing the task of TOL post-writing to you (we know who you are )– you may disregard the PS.

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