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  • Union with Christ before believing in Him !

    Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

    I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

    56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

    The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

    In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

    The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

    23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

    Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

    5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

    So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  • #2
    So unbelievers are spiritually united with Christ??
    "If you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ!" Gal. 5:4

    "How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?"
    Gal. 3:3


    "Do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?" 2 Cor. 13:5

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ChristNU View Post
      So unbelievers are spiritually united with Christ??
      Yes, those Christ died for. They are unbelievers until they hear the Truth.

      Now if you mean unbelievers that are under condemnation and wrath as in Jn 3:18 and Jn 3:36 Then no they are not.

      So now that I have answered your question, please deal with the points I made in the OP, show me if they are not accurate, and then show us how they are accurate, until then, do not evade the post again..
      "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
      preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
      called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
      a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

      Charles Spurgeon !

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
        Yes, those Christ died for. They are unbelievers until they hear the Truth.

        Now if you mean unbelievers that are under condemnation and wrath as in Jn 3:18 and Jn 3:36 Then no they are not.

        So now that I have answered your question, please deal with the points I made in the OP, show me if they are not accurate, and then show us how they are accurate, until then, do not evade the post again..
        So, there are different kinds of unbelievers??
        "If you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ!" Gal. 5:4

        "How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?"
        Gal. 3:3


        "Do you not recognize that Jesus Christ is in you?" 2 Cor. 13:5

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ChristNU View Post
          So, there are different kinds of unbelievers??
          You are going on ignore if you ask me another question without doing what I asked. You have been fairly warned !
          "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
          preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
          called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
          a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

          Charles Spurgeon !

          Comment


          • #6
            Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ is the author [causer] of our Faith and the Finisher Heb 12:2

            2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

            That word author is the greek word archēgos and means:


            the chief leader, prince

            a) of Christ

            2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

            3) the author

            Now this word is made up of Two greek words one is archē and means:


            beginning, origin

            2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

            3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

            4) the extremity of a thing

            a) of the corners of a sail

            5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

            a) of angels and demons

            Now Jesus Christ is the First active cause of our Faith. Now understand, the writer is not only speaking of believers under the New Covenant, but also of all the believers under the Old Covenant as outlined in Chapter 11 of Hebrews. Yes, He was the Author of their Faith even though He had not yet became incarnate, Yet He was still their Mediator and Surety before His Incarnation and so was the Author and Finisher of their Faith, the Captain of their Salvation !

            But I said all that to bring up this, in order for Christ to be the Author of our Faith and to communicate it to us, there had to be a Union with Him prior to, as the branch must be united to the root before it can bring forth fruit Jn 15:4-5

            4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

            5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

            Charles Spurgeon !

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

              I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

              Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

              56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

              The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

              In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

              The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

              23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

              Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

              5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

              Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

              So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !
              "So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !"-bedeviled

              Calvinist/Clavinist translation: Since I am already "united to Christ," there is no reason to believe.

              Log in...lose your mind. That "Calvinism/Clavinism in a nutshell.
              Saint John W

              Comment


              • #8
                "So before believing, one must be already united to Christ
                Yes, I just finished explaining that. Show me what is inaccurate in the previous posts that I just spent time explaining !
                "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                Charles Spurgeon !

                Comment


                • #9
                  If it is being taught that one must first believe in order to get eternal life, then we fall into salvation by works, based upon the same principle of Law under the Old Covenant which is do and Live, much like those jews who were ignorant of Salvation by Grace Rom 10:4-5

                  4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

                  5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

                  The principle here is that if men must do to live ! Yes, if there is no life until we believe, then thats works !

                  However, the Covenant of Grace is the opposite, for in it men must first live in order to do, for God in this Covenant first gives Life, and from that comes the doing ! Ezk 36:26-27

                  26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit[Life] will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

                  27 And I will put my spirit[New Life Principle] within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

                  But, if one must first do to get new Life and a New Spirit and a New Heart, that is reverted back to the Old Covenant principle of works and Law !

                  Now many will say, that believing or Faith is the opposite to works Rom 4:4-5

                  4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

                  5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

                  Now when faith or believing is opposed to works, it is understood objectively, that is, it is understood of Christ believed on as the object of faith after He is revealed to one in the Gospel as their Righteousness, and not the act of believing, for without a doubt, ones act of believing is just as much as our doing as ones act of love, So again, if we must first do, act, perform before we obtain life in Christ, we are back to Law !
                  "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                  preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                  called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                  a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                  Charles Spurgeon !

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Christ Married to the Elect before the foundation !

                    Isa 54:5

                    For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

                    The word Maker is a term used in Creation Gen 1:7,16,25

                    7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

                    16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

                    25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good

                    Neh 9:6

                    6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

                    Gen 1:26

                    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

                    Gen 2:18

                    And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

                    In Isa 54:5 Christ is speaking to His Church, whom He Created in His Own Likeness and Image, His Wife ! He also is Her Redeemer, for She was made for a Redemptive Purpose in Him !

                    Gill comments on Isa 54:5

                    For thy Maker is thine Husband,.... That is, Christ, the Husband of the church, and of every true believer; who secretly betrothed them to himself in eternity, having asked him of his father; and, being given to him, openly espouses them in conversion, one by one, as a chaste virgin; which he will do more publicly in a body at the last day, when the marriage of the Lamb will be come, when he will appear as the bridegroom of his people; and to which character he acts up, by loving them with a love of complacency and delight, most affectionately and constantly; by sympathizing with them in all their troubles; by nourishing and cherishing them as his own flesh, and interesting them in all he is and has. It is, in the Hebrew text (k) "thy Makers, thy Husbands", Father, Son, and Spirit; though the relation of a husband is more peculiar to Christ; and the words are a reason of the church's fruitfulness, and why she need not fear the performance of what was promised her; and which is wonderful and amazing; he who stands in such a near and endearing relation to his church and people, is the "Maker" of all things, yea, their Maker, both as creatures, and as new creatures:
                    Adam and Eve at Creation were a picture of Christ and the Church, A Mystery Eph 5:30-32

                    30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

                    31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

                    32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

                    Vs 31 is taken from the Creation Narrative Gen 2:23-24

                    23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

                    24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

                    Now because the Marriage Union legally existed with Christ and the Church before the foundation Eph 1:4

                    4 According as he hath chosen us[The Church Eph 5:25] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

                    It was manifested in the Creation of Adam and Eve, for this is important to establish why the Churches sin debt was His, and His Redemptive Payment was hers !

                    Understand something, If not for this Elective Union of Christ and His Church before the foundation, there was No Legal basis for her sins to be charged to Christ for Him to come into the world and die for !

                    Where we read 1 Jn 4:10

                    Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

                    If not for the Election Union and Legal Marriage of Christ and the Church before the foundation, God could not have Justly and legally sent Christ into the World to be a propitiation for her sins !
                    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                    Charles Spurgeon !

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                      Before any man or woman can believe in or on Christ regarding Justification or Salvation, they must first be in Union with Him Spiritually, that is already abiding in Him, we know this by Christ's words here Jn 15:5

                      I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

                      Jesus alludes to the same truth here Jn 6:56

                      56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

                      The eating and drinking here signifies believing or appropriating Christ by Faith, and Jesus said, the ones doing that, are dwelling or abiding in Him, and He is in them ! That denotes Pre Union !

                      In other words, their believing is the fruit of being in Him and Him being in them by Spiritual New Birth. We must first be a branch in the Vine before we can bear fruit, and Faith is one of the Fruits of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

                      The Ground must first be made good before the Gospel message can take root and bring forth fruit Matt 13:23

                      23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

                      Notice the words here bringeth forth, meaning fruit and observe the same in Jn 15:5

                      5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

                      Without Christ, separate from we can do nothing, spiritually as to believe or rest in Him for all of Salvation !

                      So before believing, one must be already united to Christ, we must be, before we can believe in Him !
                      Wrong, wrong, and wrong, but I wouldn't waste one single minute showing you where you're wrong. You're exactly like God's UNtruth. You have a big mouth but no ears.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                        Wrong, wrong, and wrong, but I wouldn't waste one single minute showing you where you're wrong. You're exactly like God's UNtruth. You have a big mouth but no ears.
                        You quoted my post, did you read and understand the points made ?
                        "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                        preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                        called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                        a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                        Charles Spurgeon !

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                          You quoted my post, did you read and understand the points made ?
                          I read the verses you were twisting and contorting to try and prove the nonsense you preach. Not one of those verse mean what you want them to. Yep, I understood.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by glorydaz View Post
                            I read the verses you were twisting and contorting to try and prove the nonsense you preach. Not one of those verse mean what you want them to. Yep, I understood.
                            If you read them, please explain back what I explained !
                            "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
                            preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
                            called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
                            a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

                            Charles Spurgeon !

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                              Isa 54:5

                              For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

                              The word Maker is a term used in Creation Gen 1:7,16,25

                              7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

                              16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

                              25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good

                              Neh 9:6

                              6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

                              Gen 1:26

                              And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

                              Gen 2:18

                              And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

                              In Isa 54:5 Christ is speaking to His Church, whom He Created in His Own Likeness and Image, His Wife ! He also is Her Redeemer, for She was made for a Redemptive Purpose in Him !

                              Gill comments on Isa 54:5



                              Adam and Eve at Creation were a picture of Christ and the Church, A Mystery Eph 5:30-32

                              30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

                              31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

                              32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

                              Vs 31 is taken from the Creation Narrative Gen 2:23-24

                              23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

                              24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

                              Now because the Marriage Union legally existed with Christ and the Church before the foundation Eph 1:4

                              4 According as he hath chosen us[The Church Eph 5:25] in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

                              It was manifested in the Creation of Adam and Eve, for this is important to establish why the Churches sin debt was His, and His Redemptive Payment was hers !

                              Understand something, If not for this Elective Union of Christ and His Church before the foundation, there was No Legal basis for her sins to be charged to Christ for Him to come into the world and die for !

                              Where we read 1 Jn 4:10

                              Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

                              If not for the Election Union and Legal Marriage of Christ and the Church before the foundation, God could not have Justly and legally sent Christ into the World to be a propitiation for her sins !

                              Amen to this excellent post!


                              Because Christ's Redemptive Purpose was only for His Church in Union with Him before the foundation Eph. 1:4,
                              I believe that scriptural fact proves that it was only His Church that was Made in the Image and Likeness of God exclusively, as opposed to false religion's teaching which maintains that all of humanity was made in the Image and Likeness of God.

                              Adam at Creation, before he sinned as Head of his wife Eve when she sinned, are a perfect representation of Christ and His Church, of which He is their Covenant Head: the Children of the Kingdom, the Sons of God, and the Good Seed in Union with Him.

                              But all the rest of humanity are children of the wicked one Ps. 37:28 KJV, the seed of the serpent John 8:44; Mat. 23:33
                              sowed into the world by the devil, and which seed was only added to Adam's posterity after his and his wife's sin in the garden.

                              Mat. 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: (v.33) and he shall separate them one from another,
                              as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (v.33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand,
                              but the goats on the left. (v.34)Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father,
                              inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (v41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

                              Christ never loved the tares, nor did He die for their sins.

                              Consequently, no amount of believing, or any other work they do in the flesh, has the ability to please God Rom. 8:8.

                              God ordained them to be condemned.

                              Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation,
                              ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God,
                              and our Lord Jesus Christ.


                              ~~~~~
                              My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever;
                              when shall I be brought in to see His Face? - Psalm 42:2

                              Comment

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