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  • #61
    Originally posted by jeremysdemo View Post
    are you saying Jesus did not go against the Orthodox beliefs of his day?

    (that is the definition of a heretic)

    answer carefully.....Matthew 10:33

    keep shinin

    jerm
    No, He didn't. He went against their 'behavior.' He told the disciples to do as they said, not do as they did.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    ? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Choleric View Post
      Sure I do, I have the bible that clearly teaches that Jesus is God, that Paul's apostleship was genuine and that salvation is a free gift.

      Please pick one if you would like clarification from Scripture.
      I wonder why they call Jesus Christ instead of Jesus God.

      Oh, I think I have figured it out, Jesus is the Christ not God.
      Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

      Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Lon View Post
        No, He didn't. He went against their 'behavior.' He told the disciples to do as they said, not do as they did.
        I think he was correcting their understanding of scripture which they based their customs on.
        Psalm 1[/COLOR] and Job 28:28

        Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

        Joh 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Lon View Post
          Originally posted by jeremysdemo
          are you saying Jesus did not go against the Orthodox beliefs of his day?

          (that is the definition of a heretic)

          answer carefully.....Matthew 10:33

          keep shinin

          jerm
          No, He didn't. He went against their 'behavior.' He told the disciples to do as they said, not do as they did.
          let's see if that holds any water when compared to scriptural references.

          One of the standard or "orthodox" beliefs of the Sadducee was against the resurrection of the dead.
          Now if the disciples were to do as the Sadducee said, were to adhere to what they taught, they too would have to not believe in the resurrection.

          is that how you interpret that passage? to include all the orthodox beliefs of the Temple teachers?

          to me what Y'shua is saying in that passage is specific to the context of the observance of Law of Moses, not every religious orthodox belief they had.

          here it is for your review, Matthew 23:3.

          keep shinin

          jerm

          Comment


          • #65
            happy heretics on a journey......

            Originally posted by Choleric View Post
            According to you He still is a heretic. Which is why you're on the list.

            It doesnt follow that my recognition of him being a 'heretic' in the eyes of many (particularly the religious leaders of his day) .... implies that I somehow think hes a 'heretic' today.

            I dont think anywhere in the archives of TOL you'll find me stating that Jesus is a 'heretic', - in fact I started here years ago as a 'Christian (Other)' and have "progressed" as a student of universal spirituality with a leaning towards liberal Hinduism (Remember 'God' is One, the same fundamental reality for all)..I've always been very positive in my 'Christology', and respectful to the Lord Jesus in both his human and divine attributes, however those are 'assumed' or 'related').

            Also my own personal experience of Jesus and the Holy Spirit remains an essential and intrinsic part of my continuous spiritual journey. I have never denied what I consider 'authentic' events of true religious experience, although I may not have thoroughly shared some of these occasions.

            The journey continues.....



            pj
            Last edited by freelight; October 9, 2012, 08:11 PM.


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            • #66
              Originally posted by Choleric View Post

              The 'Paul is a godless liar' crowd (Ebionites) (**this crowd also believes works are necessary for salvation)
              1) Glenda (Glenda also denies the deity of Christ, she is trying to get to the bottom of the Lake of Fire)
              2) jeremysdemo

              If you are on this list and you repent of your heresy, or if you find my categorization of your beliefs is in error, just post and let us know.
              I would like to know if someone cares enough for me to tell me (perfect love) how I am to repent of something I never said or did?

              I never said Paul was a liar, (but he said he lied, Romans 3:7) neither have I ever said works are necessary for salvation (tho I do not condemn anyone who does the work of God), neither did Y'shua, in fact he said anyone with faith in Him would, John 14:12, how can I be held to higher standard then His Son?

              C, you got things so twisted, does loosing a debate really bother you that much? are your own beliefs on that shaky of ground?

              if not, why do you do and say the falsehoods you say of others?

              and why do the commandments of God mean so little to you? Exodus 20:16

              I would think if the Spirit of the Almighty God was truly with you these things would weigh heavily on your heart.

              you are always in my prayers, Matthew 5:44, I can't even repent/regret knowing you C, I count that as a blessing as I count all those whom He sends to me.

              keep shinin

              jerm

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by keypurr View Post
                I wonder why they call Jesus Christ instead of Jesus God.

                Oh, I think I have figured it out, Jesus is the Christ not God.
                me and Ben just had a rather long discussion about terms used in the Torah.

                it seems back then there was much less separation between God, man, and His promises to man (more specifically Israel).

                this is to be understood when you have water parting, manna falling from the sky, demons being cast out and people being resurrected, etc..

                when was the last time any of that was going on?

                long story short, Israel is God's Son, and God made certain promises to Abraham concerning Him and his seed, the scriptures intertwine these concepts without separation, (how can one separate a promise of God from God?) How can one separate a Son of God in the same manner when the Son is covered in the promise?

                All these concepts were well established in the OT when Y'shua came, a Son of God who was also according to the apostles account the Word of God (much like the word that was a promise over Abraham's 1st born Israel) you can't separate them either, at least not in that encompassing context.

                Here, Israel was God's Son (or God's beloved whom His promises resided over) but yet was not God in the non-corporal sense, but yet covered in His Word there God dwelt and cannot be separated from His own Word, likewise Y'shua, also Son of God, also Son of Man, also God's promises/word dwelt with Him and cannot be separated from God tho he was flesh like Israel was, Psalm 22:3, God inhabited their praise.

                God's word (like promises and instruction) cannot be apart from God, it is a part of God, he who has the Word also Has God in that sense, God is Spirit and His Word is Life, that is why Y'shua said, John 5:39-40, they were searching the records of God's past word to look for Life and would not come to the Living Word that was in the vessel He chose (Y'shua) to have it more abundantly, John 10:10.

                Y'shua was the fulfillment of the promise of God to bring a Messiah, as savior unto the house of David, that was God's Word that became flesh, and His Word cannot be severed from God, John 1:1, they are one, neither does it come back void.

                I think the problem arises when people lack the education of the Torah and start thinking of these concepts as humans or corporal beings, these are not of man, neither can God or His Word, however it may go out, be compared to men and their gods and concepts of gods.

                Y'shua showed throughout his ministry, he was not a Zeus could not be the conquering warrior Messiah men wanted him to be, he was not an offspring of a greater God sent here to free the Israelite's from Roman rule, he did not fit any of the concepts man previously had of God because He was the part of God that is the Word just as the Word/promises went forth over Israel, the same Word that created the heavens and earth, the same word that gave us the commandments, but that is not good enough for some people, it is not good enough for God's word to be the part of God we receive for Life, they want a God that fit's man's definition of God, they want to define God into an idol they can worship, into a man instead of accepting His Word which is what Y'shua was sent to give to the lost sheep.

                if people want to worship a man or their own concept of God instead of accepting the Word that was sent forth throughout the Torah culminating in the promise of Messiah for the purpose of salvation they will not prosper but will be lost/perish Hosea 4:6.

                keep shinin

                jerm

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by jeremysdemo View Post
                  let's see if that holds any water when compared to scriptural references.

                  One of the standard or "orthodox" beliefs of the Sadducee was against the resurrection of the dead.
                  Now if the disciples were to do as the Sadducee said, were to adhere to what they taught, they too would have to not believe in the resurrection.

                  is that how you interpret that passage? to include all the orthodox beliefs of the Temple teachers?

                  to me what Y'shua is saying in that passage is specific to the context of the observance of Law of Moses, not every religious orthodox belief they had.

                  here it is for your review, Matthew 23:3.

                  keep shinin

                  jerm
                  Er, He told them to listen to the "Pharisees." Sure, you can make a context of interpretation for about anything but we have to be careful of that. The disciples were to avoid the contaminants of the Pharisees.
                  I agree they were to follow in orthodoxy.
                  My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                  Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                  Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                  Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                  No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                  Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                  ? Yep

                  Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                  ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                  Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Lon View Post
                    Originally posted by jeremysdemo
                    Originally posted by Lon View Post
                    Originally posted by jeremysdemo
                    are you saying Jesus did not go against the Orthodox beliefs of his day?
                    No, He didn't. He went against their 'behavior.' He told the disciples to do as they said, not do as they did.
                    let's see if that holds any water when compared to scriptural references.

                    One of the standard or "orthodox" beliefs of the Sadducee was against the resurrection of the dead.
                    Now if the disciples were to do as the Sadducee said, were to adhere to what they taught, they too would have to not believe in the resurrection.

                    is that how you interpret that passage? to include all the orthodox beliefs of the Temple teachers?

                    to me what Y'shua is saying in that passage is specific to the context of the observance of Law of Moses, not every religious orthodox belief they had.

                    here it is for your review, Matthew 23:3.

                    keep shinin

                    jerm
                    Er, He told them to listen to the "Pharisees." Sure, you can make a context of interpretation for about anything but we have to be careful of that. The disciples were to avoid the contaminants of the Pharisees.
                    I agree they were to follow in orthodoxy.
                    Let me ask you another question, maybe it will help put this in perspective since the resurrection didn't work, leaving aside for a moment that the Sadducee where scribes (also mentioned in the passage) and High Priest sitting in the seat of Moses in the Temple, let alone that some beleive the term of "Pharisees" greatly increased in the gospels oral traditions after the destruction on the Temple (of which many blamed the Pharisees for the uprising) and that the passage clearly mentions the observance of the law and not every orthodox belief of groups of that time were included in that observance, (for example it well accepted that some groups rejected mitzvot for Halakha and instead accepted the Tanakh as supreme authority as the Sadducee are believed to have).

                    ^^^that is the context, historically and scripturaly^^^

                    knowing that Christian Orthodoxy varies in Eastern and Western traditions down the centuries, what in your opinion is the correct Orthodoxy today (most accurate to the traditions of the apostles) that a person may follow your assertion above about Y'shua and what you beleive his example was for us to follow?

                    keep shinin

                    jerm

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by jeremysdemo View Post
                      what in your opinion is the correct Orthodoxy today (most accurate to the traditions of the apostles) that a person may follow your assertion above about Y'shua and what you beleive his example was for us to follow?

                      keep shinin

                      jerm
                      Is there going to be a comparison? I'm not sure it will work. We make this assessment based on what we know of scripture in comparison, and we are protestant 'outsiders' looking at the two you mention. Jesus and the disciples were in the middle of the Jewish community. Jesus gave several 'in-house' verifications such as "we Jews worship what we know" and "I came for the house of Israel." Those, to me, are a lot different than trying to make a weaker comparison by contrast.

                      That is, Jesus gave a greater endorsement than your and mine would be of the EO and RC.
                      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                      ? Yep

                      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Lon View Post
                        Is there going to be a comparison? I'm not sure it will work. We make this assessment based on what we know of scripture in comparison, and we are protestant 'outsiders' looking at the two you mention. Jesus and the disciples were in the middle of the Jewish community. Jesus gave several 'in-house' verifications such as "we Jews worship what we know" and "I came for the house of Israel." Those, to me, are a lot different than trying to make a weaker comparison by contrast.

                        That is, Jesus gave a greater endorsement than your and mine would be of the EO and RC.
                        Why are you not confirming the Sadducee where scribes and sat in the seat of Moses at the time of Y'shua therefore included in His instruction to the disciples Matthew 23:3, and that their orthodox beliefs excluded resurrection?

                        I only asked you the question to try and give the example relevance and scripture application to our time and this thread who's subject is Orthodoxy and heresy (it's a given we are far removed from the their situation). The Sadducee where the very picture of Orthodoxy at that time (rejecting mitzvot and adhering only to Tanakh) yet Y'shua spoke directly against their belief concerning resurrection, Matthew 17:22-23.

                        how can you know that and still say Y'shua supported the Orthodoxy of his day?

                        perhaps the definition will help?

                        1or·tho·dox
                        adjective \ˈȯr-thə-ˌdäks\
                        1
                        a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion

                        keep shinin

                        jerm

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by jeremysdemo View Post
                          Why are you not confirming the Sadducee where scribes and sat in the seat of Moses at the time of Y'shua therefore included in His instruction to the disciples Matthew 23:3, and that their orthodox beliefs excluded resurrection?

                          I only asked you the question to try and give the example relevance and scripture application to our time and this thread who's subject is Orthodoxy and heresy (it's a given we are far removed from the their situation). The Sadducee where the very picture of Orthodoxy at that time (rejecting mitzvot and adhering only to Tanakh) yet Y'shua spoke directly against their belief concerning resurrection, Matthew 17:22-23.

                          how can you know that and still say Y'shua supported the Orthodoxy of his day?

                          perhaps the definition will help?

                          1or·tho·dox
                          adjective \ˈȯr-thə-ˌdäks\
                          1
                          a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion

                          keep shinin

                          jerm
                          Do you remember when He corrected them, he uplifted one's teaching over the other on that particular? That is supporting an orthodoxy isn't it (Capital Orthodoxy means the Orthodox churches )?
                          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
                          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
                          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
                          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
                          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
                          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

                          ? Yep

                          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

                          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

                          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Lon View Post
                            Do you remember when He corrected them, he uplifted one's teaching over the other on that particular? That is supporting an orthodoxy isn't it
                            Yes I do, Orthodoxy has no room however for picking and choosing, to disagree with even on tenant is to reject orthodoxy as Y'shua did according to the accounts of the apostles.

                            Yes, one may find some things within Orthodoxy that they agree with, even walk across bipartisan lines as Y'shua did, but unless they adhere to it's entirety they are not fully supporting Orthodoxy, therefore a heretic.

                            The purpose of my initial post to Choleric which you ran with was to see if he believes Y'shua went against the Orthodoxy (or established doctrine of his time, by definition) which I beleive ample evidence has been presented to support.

                            I still would like to hear his answer, we have yours which is No, however in light of the scripture presented you are always welcome to change that.
                            Originally posted by Lon View Post
                            (Capital Orthodoxy means the Orthodox churches )?
                            grammatically you are correct, that was my mistake capitalizing orthodoxy in this context, a bad habit with that word.

                            we can also argue that orthodoxy in God's eyes is different than mans perception and Y'shua was more in-tune with that than the leaders of his day, but that certainly opens up the word to different definitions and makes using it as a yardstick to define heresy more difficult.

                            keep shinin

                            jerm

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by freelight View Post
                              It doesnt follow that my recognition of him being a 'heretic' in the eyes of many (particularly the religious leaders of his day) .... implies that I somehow think hes a 'heretic' today.

                              I dont think anywhere in the archives of TOL you'll find me stating that Jesus is a 'heretic', - in fact I started here years ago as a 'Christian (Other)' and have "progressed" as a student of universal spirituality with a leaning towards liberal Hinduism (Remember 'God' is One, the same fundamental reality for all)..I've always been very positive in my 'Christology', and respectful to the Lord Jesus in both his human and divine attributes, however those are 'assumed' or 'related').

                              Also my own personal experience of Jesus and the Holy Spirit remains an essential and intrinsic part of my continuous spiritual journey. I have never denied what I consider 'authentic' events of true religious experience, although I may not have thoroughly shared some of these occasions.

                              The journey continues.....

                              pj
                              Jesus said that no man comes to the Father but by Him. Jesus said that He is the way and He is the only way. Jesus said that Way is narrow.

                              Do you believe that the Blood of Jesus and the salvation offered by God through faith is the only way to get to heaven? Do you believe biblical Christianity is the only way to God? I think the answer would be no.

                              Therefore, you call Jesus a liar and therefore consider Him a heretic, even though I am sure you find it uncomfortable to say it out loud.
                              Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by jeremysdemo View Post
                                I would like to know if someone cares enough for me to tell me (perfect love) how I am to repent of something I never said or did?
                                I remember some time back, Chickenman asked me to show proof of this too and I found a couple posts of yours and showed him and you most definitely have.

                                I never said Paul was a liar, (but he said he lied, Romans 3:7)
                                That is a lie. Paul never said he was a liar.

                                neither have I ever said works are necessary for salvation (tho I do not condemn anyone who does the work of God), neither did Y'shua, in fact he said anyone with faith in Him would, John 14:12, how can I be held to higher standard then His Son?

                                C, you got things so twisted, does loosing a debate really bother you that much? are your own beliefs on that shaky of ground?
                                I am not losing any debate. what are you talking about. If I ever enter into a debate, it is a topic which I am comfortable addressing and have not lost any debate. Please explain what you are talking about.

                                if not, why do you do and say the falsehoods you say of others?
                                On more than one occassion I have asked you to clear up your positions for us all. Just say the following:

                                Paul the apostle was God's great apostle to the gentiles. His obedience to the call of God was genuine and his writings are the basis for New Testament Christianity. Without His inspired contribution to the Word, we would have a much different Christianity and it is through this great man of God we understand the doctrine of salvation by grace without works. Paul was not a heretic and anyone who attempts to teach the gospel without His work, is preaching "another gospel".

                                If you can put your stamp of approval on that statement, I will publicly repent and apologize. Past experience tells me you won't.

                                and why do the commandments of God mean so little to you? Exodus 20:16
                                They mean quite a bit to me:

                                Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

                                Of course, that command comes from the pen of Paul, and we can understand why you would ignore that one.
                                I would think if the Spirit of the Almighty God was truly with you these things would weigh heavily on your heart.
                                They do, which is why I am so passionate about truth and the unperverted gospel. People that teach heresy lead others to hell, which is what those on the list do.

                                you are always in my prayers, Matthew 5:44, I can't even repent/regret knowing you C, I count that as a blessing as I count all those whom He sends to me.

                                keep shinin

                                jerm
                                Thanks jerm.
                                Your issue is one of AUTHORITY. All heresy starts and ends where a person sets themselves above God's Word and becomes their own authority. It is disguised as "textual criticism" and "scholarship". All of it ends where the first lie began "Hath God Said?"

                                Comment

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