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William Barr: Religion is Under Attack

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  • Originally posted by quip View Post
    Her right to bodily autonomy. Your account purposefully disregards this key distinction.
    not at all - in fact it's you who ignores her right to bodily autonomy when you deny her the "moral right" to devalue the life of her infant child and abandon it

    Comment


    • Originally posted by The Barbarian View Post
      In the last 47 years, there's voluminous data, with many millions of pregnancies,each a data point. So we can be very sure.



      I doubt if you could find a historian who wouldn't consider a half-century to be enough for a history.



      Roe vs. Wade was 1973, and there is history in some states before that. And of course data from other nations as well.



      History is data and inference is what we learn from it.



      A half-century seems like a lot of history to me, given the mass of data we have from those decades.



      History is written by the winners, only much later do we second guess them.




      History of the Gulf War

      Since the Arab oil embargo of 1974, Western states have attempted to find alternatives to their growing dependence on imported oil. However, the West did a better job of negotiating regional security arrangements to protect the leading sources of oil imports than it did in finding substitutes. With the fall of the Shah of Iran and the Iranian hostage situation, the West lost its only regional military base. This loss caused an increased risk that the Gulf could be dominated by a radical anti-Western power (Cordessman 1-2). When Iraq invaded Kuwait, the West moved quickly and decisively to strike down the enemy that would threaten its allies and deprive it of its supply of oil.

      https://www.freeonlineresearchpapers...story-gulf-war

      Historians would be puzzled by your assertion.
      I disagree. One, the Gulf War is 'over.' Abortion is not. You are attempting to write something meaningful as a historian, and in this case, I assert there is not enough history AND that we've no idea really where those statistics go from here. Completely erradicated? That'd be history. Continuing up then down again? Seems premature to try and write a summary to me. I quite disagree with you on this instance and believe responsible historians are with me, not you on this.
      Originally posted by The Barbarian View Post
      https://www.nrlc.org/abortion/history/

      There have been several generations in the past half-century.
      Different. This is a 'political history of abortion documents' so misnomer.
      I appreciate the data, but as you can see on the site, no conclusions are or really can be meaningfully drawn. It is like trying to write 'history' of the war on terror, it simply isn't over yet. "The war so far" is history in the sense that part is over, but it really isn't meaningful until we can draw conclusions in resolve. There is none at present.

      Originally posted by The Barbarian View Post
      Walking in several national cemeteries, I see a lot of them written by the deceased.



      Perhaps, some of them wanted to say something for their families. My personal favorite: "Don't wreck my truck."
      Odd. Like "I was a good father, husband, and citizen." I've never seen a tombstone this way. It seems, as you say, it may be an oddity of military graves
      My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
      Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
      Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
      Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
      No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
      Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

      ? Yep

      Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

      ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

      Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ok doser View Post
        not at all - in fact it's you who ignores her right to bodily autonomy when you deny her the "moral right" to devalue the life of her infant child and abandon it
        break that one down doser.
        Praytell how do you abort a birthed child? You're grasping.
        _/\_

        Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by annabenedetti View Post
          So many words, so little reality.
          In the past, the 'us/them' stuck pretty well in public mind whether or not a democrat was pro-choice. My mother has always voted Democrat (until this last year, and definitely not Republican). She is far from pro-choice but could not bring herself to embrace much of the Republican agenda. I've grown a bit empathetic to the Republicans regarding business ownership etc. but we grew up hearing that Democrats were for everyday people and the Republicans represented a smaller portion. About the 80's 90's Republicans began gathering up Christians who were disillusioned Democrats or at least supporters. In these last 10 years, it has been very difficult not being disillusioned with Republican politicians as well. We are just looking for sensible moral men who uphold many if not all of our values. I'm not sure if this erases any of the 'us/them' tenor, but this is why it isn't as stark for me today. I'm looking across the aisle and hoping someone else carries my values where they are harder and harder to see in political arenas.
          My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
          Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
          Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
          Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
          No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
          Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

          ? Yep

          Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

          ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

          Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by quip View Post
            break that one down doser.
            Praytell how do you abort a birthed child? You're grasping.

            reread what i wrote

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ok doser View Post
              reread what i wrote
              The subject is abortion. Stick to it....I don't need your moronic red herrings.
              _/\_

              Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                I disagree. One, the Gulf War is 'over.' Abortion is not. You are attempting to write something meaningful as a historian, and in this case, I assert there is not enough history AND that we've no idea really where those statistics go from here. Completely erradicated? That'd be history. Continuing up then down again? Seems premature to try and write a summary to me. I quite disagree with you on this instance and believe responsible historians are with me, not you on this.

                what barbie's doing, and failing to acknowledge, is pretending to write a history of a discrete period of the abortion story, in a defined context - ie, American, mid 70's to present

                he's also dishonestly failing to consider other factors, such as the decline in the birth rate and the aging population


                it would be like me claiming to write a history of the automobile when all I covered was the pony car wars of the 60's

                Comment


                • Originally posted by quip View Post
                  The subject is abortion. Stick to it....I don't need your moronic red herrings.
                  no, the subject is the ending of a human life, remember?

                  Originally posted by ok doser View Post
                  ... human life begins at conception
                  Originally posted by quip View Post
                  Who's denying that?


                  and you're the one who brought in the concept of bodily autonomy - was that a red herring?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                    In these last 10 years, it has been very difficult not being disillusioned with Republican politicians as well. We are just looking for sensible moral men who uphold many if not all of our values.
                    the two Bush's were pretty good in that regard, as was Reagan

                    and Carter

                    Nixon was, by all accounts, an honorable man when serving as Ike's Veep, but something changed in his psyche during his eight years in the wilderness

                    or perhaps he was just affected by the darkness that took over the whole country during the JFK/LBJ presidencies



                    too close to call Obama, I'll start reading historical analyses of his terms in twenty years

                    pretty sure we all know where the Clintons fall on that continuum

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Lon View Post
                      I disagree. One, the Gulf War is 'over.' Abortion is not.
                      So there's no such thing as American history? America's still here, after all. No, that doesn't make any sense to me. Abortion has a long history...

                      Book II Elegy XIV: Against Abortion; by Publius Ovidius Naso

                      Where’s the joy in a girl being free from fighting wars,
                      unwilling to follow the army and their shields,
                      if without battle she suffers wounds from her own weapons,
                      and arms unsure hands to her own doom?

                      Whoever first taught the destruction of a tender foetus,
                      deserved to die by her own warlike methods.
                      No doubt you’d chance your arm in that dismal arena
                      just to keep your belly free of wrinkles with your crime?

                      If the same practice had pleased mothers of old,
                      Humanity would have been destroyed by that violation.
                      and we’d need a creator again for each of our peoples
                      to throw the stones that made us onto the empty earth.

                      Who would have shattered the wealth of Priam, if Thetis,
                      the sea goddess, had refused to carry her rightful burden?
                      If Ilia had murdered the twins in her swollen womb,
                      the founder of my mistress’s City would have been lost.

                      If Venus had desecrated her belly, pregnant with Aeneas,
                      Earth would have been bereft of future Caesars.
                      You too, with your beauty still to be born, would have died,
                      if your mother had tried what you have done.

                      I myself would be better to die making love
                      than have been denied the light of day by my mother.
                      Why rob the loaded vine of burgeoning grapes,
                      or pluck the unripe apple with cruel hand?

                      Let things mature themselves – grow without being forced:
                      life is a prize that’s worth a little waiting.
                      Why submit your womb to probing instruments,
                      or give lethal poison to what is not yet born?

                      Medea is blamed for sprinkling the blood of her children,
                      and Itys, slain by his mother, is lamented with tears:
                      both cruel parents, yet both had bitter reason
                      to shed blood, revenge on a husband.

                      Say, what Tereus, what Jason incites you
                      to pierce your troubled body with your hand?
                      No tiger in its Armenian lair would do it,
                      no lioness would dare destroy her foetus.

                      But tender girls do it, though not un-punished:
                      often she who kills her child, dies herself.
                      She dies, and is carried to the pyre with loosened hair,
                      and whoever looks on cries out: ‘She deserved it!’

                      But let these words vanish on the ethereal breeze,
                      and let my imprecations have no weight!
                      You gods, prosper her: let her first sin go, in safety,
                      and be satisfied: you can punish her second crime!


                      Ovid ca. 10 BC


                      Odd. Like "I was a good father, husband, and citizen." I've never seen a tombstone this way.
                      Go to a national cemetery and walk among graves of Vietnam veterans. There's a lot of it. Lots of conventional epitaphs too, but still a lot of humor.

                      It seems, as you say, it may be an oddity of military graves
                      Supposedly W.C. Field's says "All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."

                      But a quick look on the net shows a lot of clever last messages, from the classic "I told you I was sick." to all sorts of last shots.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by quip View Post
                        The subject is abortion. Stick to it....I don't need your moronic red herrings.
                        Don't feed the troll.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ok doser View Post
                          no, the subject is the ending of a human life, remember?
                          Yes I do...via ABORTION remember? Stay on topic.
                          _/\_

                          Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by quip View Post
                            Yes I do...via ABORTION remember? Stay on topic.
                            ok, we're done

                            once again you can't defend your decision to value a human life differently depending on it's location

                            instead, you reject reason (a human life has value regardless of its location) and rely on emotion (your position that a woman must not be inconvenienced while pregnant) and irrationality (the value of a human life is dependent on its location)

                            shoulda known better, but this silly nonsense got my hopes up:
                            Originally posted by quip View Post
                            How quickly reason gets abandoned by way of emotion.

                            shoulda known you were talking about yourself

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ok doser View Post
                              ok, we're done

                              once again you can't defend your decision to value a human life differently depending on it's location

                              instead, you reject reason (a human life has value regardless of its location) and rely on emotion (your position that a woman must not be inconvenienced while pregnant) and irrationality (the value of a human life is dependent on its location)

                              shoulda known better, but this silly nonsense got my hopes up:


                              shoulda known you were talking about yourself
                              "Location"
                              Yea.....we done!
                              _/\_

                              Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

                              Comment


                              • Religion is not "under attack" in America and never has been . But unfortunately, certain extremist Christians are out to bring America, the most religiously divers nation which has ever existed, closer and closer to becoming what the very thing founders were utterly opposed to -a Christian theocracy .
                                Barr is one of these unfortunately . The Trump administration is positively infested with these extremist Christians who have no tolerance for anyone who is not heterosexual evangelical Christian and delude themselves into believing the founders shared their rigid evangelical Christian beliefs and wanted to impose a Christian theocracy on this country .
                                And Barr's self-righteous blather is utterly hypocritical , because he is a toady of a president who is a phony Christian if there ever was one and who lives a life which makes a mockery of morality, virtue self, control, decency , compassion , etc - everything Christians claim to stand for .
                                Criticizing these extremist christians harshly and condemning them for their narrow-mindedness, intolerance , self-righteousness and hypocrisy is not an "attack on Christianity ". It is the right thing to do .

                                Comment

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