What the Law and the Bible say about Homosexuality.
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Did God say that they are immoral or illegal? We are talking about God's Law here. Immoral? Yes. Illegal? Yes. Both immoral and illegal. With God's Law I am hard pressed to discover why someone would think one and not the other. So, still illegal. Against the Law.
From the opening post it does not. I am wondering if it has been implied that somewhere in the Torah it does.
Is gay different from homosexual? The commandment is certainly against homosexuality and homosexual sin. My understanding is that the word gay is often associated with homosexuality.
According to you, Paul was an "anti-gay bigot"...
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.Professing to be wise, they became fools,and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans 1:18-32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans1:18-32&version=NKJV
Thankfully, you're wrong, and Paul, being right, wasn't a bigot at all.
There is more than one type of law in the bible. If the laws you refer to where moral laws then you'd have a point but they aren't and so you don't.
Basically (very basically) there are two types of laws (there are actually more but it isn't necessary to get to into the weeds on this) there are laws which are moral in nature. Laws that prohinit murder, rape, adultry, kidnapping, fornication, assault, theft, trespassing, perjury, etc fall into this category. Then there are what one might call religious or symbolic or ceremonial laws like circumcision and Sabbath observance. That's easy enough to understand, right?
The religious laws are regulations that God put Israel under that had primarily to do with His relationship with that nation and to do with that naion's relationship with other nations. They were intended to keep Israel seperated from other nations and to symbolize doctrinal truths and perhaps a few other things (again, it's not necessary to get too far into the weeds on this). The point is that such laws have no application outside of the nation of Israel during the time when their covenant with God was in effect (which it no longer is - for now). These laws include things like circumcizion, Sabbath observances (not just Saturday either - there's a whole list of Sabbath days), food and clothing regulations, etc.
There are a small handfull of laws that are somewhat difficult to tell which group they belong to without serious study and understanding the nature and purpose of the law but for the most part it's pretty easy to tell. In fact, most are intuitive.
One of the ways that you can tell is by the fact that while moral laws cannot ever conflict with eachother, religious and symbolic laws can and do all the time. Take, for example, circumcision and sabbath day observance. Circumcision was required to be done on the eigth day of a male child's life but no work of the flesh was allowed on a Sabbath. So what happens if the eigth day of a child's life falls on a Saturday (or other Sabbath)? We can know that these laws are not about fundamental moral issues because they can interfere with one another in a manner that forces your to violate one of them and there must be a regulation in place to tell you when you can violate one in order to follow the other. In this case, you would circumcize the child because (well, because that what the law says - again trying to avoid the weeds here.)
Moral laws cannot conflict in this manner. You can never find yourself in a situation where you must kidnap a person to keep from murdering them or criminally assault someone to prevent yourself from sleeping with his wife.
The bottom line is that God is just and Christian's who advocate just laws as taught to us by God in His word are not being the inconsistent fools you'd like to pretend that they're being.
Now, since being consistent seems to be so important to you, shall we all hold our breath to see whether you drop this argument and refuse to use it in the future?
Clete
It doesn't say stone them but it does use the phrase "shall surely be put to death". Stone them, run them off a cliff, behead them, hang them, shoot them in the temple, what difference does it make?
Was reading my post again after reading Clete's post (and an excellent post at that, [MENTION=2589]Clete[/MENTION], well said!), and it occurred to me that Horn reminds me of a man who called in to BEL several years ago.
During his time on air, he challenged Bob to find one verse in the New Testament that condemned homosexuality. Bob quoted the above passage from Romans 1, and the caller, I kid you not, demanded that Romans was in the Old Testament. Of course, Bob being Bob, conceded to the guy that Romans was in fact in the Old Testament, and politely let the caller go, and then laughed about it on air, somewhat disappointed with the general knowledge of the average Christian.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
To a normal person, the notion of any of the above is barbaric.
God never required any nation other than Israel to make the Law of Moses the law of the land. God did not require Rome to circumcise their children nor did He hold it against Greese when their people would work through the weekends. It was perfectly legal and totally fine (morally) for them to totally ignore the Torah. Right and wrong are not defined by the Torah. It was wrong to murder long before Moses came down that mountain with two tablets of stone that said, amoung other things, that thou shall not murder. It is God Himself, t(i.e. His character), that defines right and wrong. God is not righteous because He's following the Torah. God was good for an eternity before the Torah ever existed.
Indeed, there was a time before murder was against the law and when the death penalty was expressly forbidden. The result was that God had to flood the whole place out and start over the Noah and his family. It wasn't until Noah landed the ark that God said, "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man." (Gen. 9:6) How long before the Torah was that?
The point here is that in the United States, and darn near everywhere else for that matter, it is entirely legal for you to be a homo or nearly any other sort of sexual pervert you want to be. That doesn't make it right and yes, these people will answer to God for their sin but not because their behavior was against the law but because it was immoral.
Clete
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
I reckon most "average" Christians know that Romans is part of the NT and considering Bob goes along with the likes of "The Pink Swastika", he's hardly one in a position to laugh about anything and be taken seriously anyway.
That's because the "normal" (i.e. typical) person has no idea what justice looks like.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
A modern "normal" person is perverted and rejects God
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Oh please, people like you are like the bloated legalists of the time that you seem to venerate so much. Full of self righteous ire but little to nothing in the way of love or understanding.
Could you shove an adulterous woman off a cliff?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Sure, handcuffed to the guy she was with
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
tell us artie, how would you demonstrate your love and understanding to a rapist?
how would you demonstrate your love and understanding to a child molester?
i predict crickets
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
that's just you being full of self-righteous ire Clete :dizzy:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
care to discuss your anti-pedophile bigotry?
or your anti-bestophile bigotry?
again, i predict crickets
It likely makes a difference.